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  #21  
Old 16.04.2021, 17:50
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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For me the requirement to have 40% in Swiss equities in viac is onerous.

Another advantage of finpension is that they allow you have 99% in equities rather than 97%.

A 3rd is that they don't have an fx spread.

The 4th would be viac doesn't have the msci world quality index which is my preferred index in finpension.

Finally, if you ever leave Switzerland, finpension is situated in low tax Schwyz, so you withdrawal rate would be lower than viac, based in Basel.

The app is undoubtedly clunkier than viacs, but the offering in my view is marginally superior.
+++ on this one! I moved from VIAC to FinPension because of the above reasons and been very happy since then.
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Old 16.04.2021, 22:48
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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In my opinion it really depends on your tax rate.

You'll save X% on your taxes depending on your personal circumstances.

Using a pillar 3a account, even a decent one, can be expected to have higher fees and lower overall return than investing directly. You can have some control over the assets but not much.

So there's a balance between taking that almost immediate % return by reducing income, vs. paying tax now and then investing the money how you please, with no restrictions to access. The balance depends on your circumstances.

Pensions including the 3a also reduce your wealth tax and you pay no tax on dividends, so that's another benefit. However, you'll pay a (usually lower) rate of tax when you finally withdraw.

Personally, I'm happy to do both. Use the pensions but also invest aside from them.
You've formulated my original question in so much clearer words, thank you for that!

Personally I think I will go along also with 3a, as a kind of diversification element. As a different branch I plan to invest with robo-advisors.

Now, there are questions coming from that:

1. When VIAC or Finpension invest your money, are they constantly reviewing and correcting your investments? I mean a process similar to, for example, Selma.

2. 40% of Swiss equities in VIAC vs Finpension. That may be a total newbie question, but why is that restriction of VIAC so important to bypass? Is it only important for more aware investors (not the robo-advisor using) to be able to have more freedom in choosing?

3. What about VIAC or Finpension vs frankly (from Zürcher Kantonalbank)? I've already read that this is a new player in a game (like a direct competition to VIAC and Finpension.

4. https://www.moneyland.ch/en/ that website seems like a good place for digging deeper. They state they are completely independent of any insurance/pension/investing company. Can they really be trusted in that and the objectiveness of information?

Last edited by Excad; 16.04.2021 at 22:58.
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  #23  
Old 17.04.2021, 01:51
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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You've formulated my original question in so much clearer words, thank you for that!

Personally I think I will go along also with 3a, as a kind of diversification element. As a different branch I plan to invest with robo-advisors.

Now, there are questions coming from that:

1. When VIAC or Finpension invest your money, are they constantly reviewing and correcting your investments? I mean a process similar to, for example, Selma.

2. 40% of Swiss equities in VIAC vs Finpension. That may be a total newbie question, but why is that restriction of VIAC so important to bypass? Is it only important for more aware investors (not the robo-advisor using) to be able to have more freedom in choosing?

3. What about VIAC or Finpension vs frankly (from Zürcher Kantonalbank)? I've already read that this is a new player in a game (like a direct competition to VIAC and Finpension.

4. https://www.moneyland.ch/en/ that website seems like a good place for digging deeper. They state they are completely independent of any insurance/pension/investing company. Can they really be trusted in that and the objectiveness of information?
1. this is called rebalancing, they do that.

2. I can compensate it with other investments so I don't really care.

3. AFAIK finpension is the cheapest now, but viac has been around longer and recently improved their offerings so it's a wash, while frankly is more expensive than both.

4. I found good information there but I would never use a single website as the sole source for advice. Info also gets outdated fast. Read the fine print of the offers and compare yourself.
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Old 17.04.2021, 02:41
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

Good point about your capabilities to withstand stress regarding making the choice between the providers. I started with moving all 3a money 100% in equities 5 years ago. Of course I decided to split them into different robo-strategies but apart from that I don't really care of reviewing them more than once a year or so. I'm going easy with that mostly because it's just 6.x k a year, not significant portion of my annual savings. Another point is that once overall the money will grow enough it might be more tempting to watch it closer.

But anyway, I realized more or less recently how much money I have lost due to poor financial management (just keeping it at banks for 0%). I guess it's typical but when I moved to Switzerland and for the first time in my life my account started accumulating something more than peanuts, initially I wasn't eager to bet that it'll last for long so I didn't want to "lock" the money at lest until I get the permit C. Then, the first kind of obvious thought was "wow looks like I would be able to buy a house here", but then I re-evaluated it and realized that it would make no sense (guess it's just my view of it, but...).


It's getting a burning point so I'm trying hard to educate myself to start investing my wealth properly, but well, as a last resort I'll throw it at various robo-advisers (again a bit diversified) and just live with that.

Last edited by Gravity; 17.04.2021 at 02:59.
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Old 17.04.2021, 10:25
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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Good point about your capabilities to withstand stress regarding making the choice between the providers. I started with moving all 3a money 100% in equities 5 years ago. Of course I decided to split them into different robo-strategies but apart from that I don't really care of reviewing them more than once a year or so. I'm going easy with that mostly because it's just 6.x k a year, not significant portion of my annual savings. Another point is that once overall the money will grow enough it might be more tempting to watch it closer.

But anyway, I realized more or less recently how much money I have lost due to poor financial management (just keeping it at banks for 0%). I guess it's typical but when I moved to Switzerland and for the first time in my life my account started accumulating something more than peanuts, initially I wasn't eager to bet that it'll last for long so I didn't want to "lock" the money at lest until I get the permit C. Then, the first kind of obvious thought was "wow looks like I would be able to buy a house here", but then I re-evaluated it and realized that it would make no sense (guess it's just my view of it, but...).


It's getting a burning point so I'm trying hard to educate myself to start investing my wealth properly, but well, as a last resort I'll throw it at various robo-advisers (again a bit diversified) and just live with that.
Same here. Started investing with Selma and pretty happy about it! Shout if you need a welcome code.
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Old 17.04.2021, 12:35
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

Do you have a plan how to get the money out?

If you expect to withdraw from 3P when resident of another country you may have to pay tax in that country and rates may be higher. It depends on the double tax agreement between CH and destination country
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  #27  
Old 17.04.2021, 13:27
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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Now if you aren't close to retirement and with options like 99% MSCI World Ex-CH Quality, its a much closer call.
Why ex-CH?
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  #28  
Old 17.04.2021, 13:41
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

What happens with 3a pillar in case of owners death?

VIAC offers 2500CHF for each 10k invested in securities in case of disability. Is it yearly or monthly or one-off payment?
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  #29  
Old 17.04.2021, 13:46
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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What happens with 3a pillar in case of owners death?

VIAC offers 2500CHF for each 10k invested in securities in case of disability. Is it yearly or monthly or one-off payment?
One off payment.
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  #30  
Old 17.04.2021, 13:47
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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What happens with 3a pillar in case of owners death?

VIAC offers 2500CHF for each 10k invested in securities in case of disability. Is it yearly or monthly or one-off payment?
Same thing that happens to any asset: inheritance.
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  #31  
Old 17.04.2021, 15:15
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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Better to avoid those
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  #32  
Old 17.04.2021, 15:18
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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You actually max it out to reduce income tax which is much more impactful!
If you have a 30 year horizon it is not.
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  #33  
Old 17.04.2021, 15:22
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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Finally, if you ever leave Switzerland, finpension is situated in low tax Schwyz, so you withdrawal rate would be lower than viac, based in Basel.
Not a big issue IMHO. You can trasfer the money from Viac to Finpension before leaving Switzerland.
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  #34  
Old 17.04.2021, 15:33
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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Why ex-CH?
Just because it's what's offered. Obviously msci world quality would be almost identical.
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Old 17.04.2021, 21:21
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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1. this is called rebalancing, they do that.

2. I can compensate it with other investments so I don't really care.

3. AFAIK finpension is the cheapest now, but viac has been around longer and recently improved their offerings so it's a wash, while frankly is more expensive than both.

4. I found good information there but I would never use a single website as the sole source for advice. Info also gets outdated fast. Read the fine print of the offers and compare yourself.
Thanks Murloc.

Ad.2. I get it that you can compensate it with wider diversification outside 3a, but the real disadvantage here? Lack of total freedom in choosing?

If that is true, I assume it shouldn't be that important for a guy like me (so robo-advisor user, not hardcore investor). And the reason I don't want to be a hardcore investor is - I already tried, it didn't play out great and I didn't have heart for it. It is like another profession for me, not a hobby. At the end I decided to get better in my real profession, get more money from it and leave investment management to professionals (and of course, pay them).

Macrino, as you can see I prefer if somebody plays for me My wife plays a bit with crypto, but she has fun in that (so it is not another exhausting element in her life).

Gravity, why did you come up with the conclusion, that buying a house in CH makes no sense?
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  #36  
Old 01.06.2021, 22:31
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

Guys, I am digging more in that topic. I think something is change with finpension - they are now in Luzern, not Schwyz. So that changes the situation with the taxes.

Now the fees today are:
Viac - 0.45% (Global 100)
finpension 0.39% (flat)

So that seems like a huge difference now. And since finpension can invest 99% and Viac 97% i guess finpension is clearly a winner now.

The thing is - they are really new on the market. Maybe they want to win more clients with that offer now, but then make some negative maneuver. What's your opinion from the experience?
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Old 01.06.2021, 22:46
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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Guys, I am digging more in that topic. I think something is change with finpension - they are now in Luzern, not Schwyz. So that changes the situation with the taxes.

Now the fees today are:
Viac - 0.45% (Global 100)
finpension 0.39% (flat)

So that seems like a huge difference now. And since finpension can invest 99% and Viac 97% i guess finpension is clearly a winner now.

The thing is - they are really new on the market. Maybe they want to win more clients with that offer now, but then make some negative maneuver. What's your opinion from the experience?
Viac was first and works well, so an alternative has to be much much better to make me take the effort to switch.
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  #38  
Old 01.06.2021, 22:59
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

as it's good to have 5 accounts in total, so I just invested this year's amount in finpension, but left in viac what was already in viac.

I have yet to decide about next year.

It will be easier to decide and trust them in a few years. Then I might move all my money.
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Old 02.06.2021, 02:31
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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Guys, I am digging more in that topic. I think something is change with finpension - they are now in Luzern, not Schwyz. So that changes the situation with the taxes.

Now the fees today are:
Viac - 0.45% (Global 100)
finpension 0.39% (flat)

So that seems like a huge difference now. And since finpension can invest 99% and Viac 97% i guess finpension is clearly a winner now.

The thing is - they are really new on the market. Maybe they want to win more clients with that offer now, but then make some negative maneuver. What's your opinion from the experience?
I don't think that's correct. Yes the Finpension Team are based in Lucerne, but the money is held in Schwyz. This is an email my wife got from them:

Dear Ms XXXXX,

For the year 2021 you can still deposit CHF 6'883.00.

To deposit money to the Portfolio 1, please use the following payment instruction:

Account number yyyyyyy
Bank Credit Suisse, Zürich
Beneficiary finpension 3a Retirement Savings Foundation
c/o Mattig Suter & Partner
6430 Schwyz
Reference number zzzzzzzzzz
You can also use this payment instruction for a standing order.

Kind regards,

Your finpension team

PS: Deposits are credited to the portfolio one day after receipt of payment.

finpension AG
Hirschmattstrasse 36
6003 Lucerne
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Old 02.06.2021, 09:45
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Re: 3a pillar vs personal investing

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For me the requirement to have 40% in Swiss equities in viac is onerous.
Not really.
40% denominated in CHF.
So you can take the non-CH fund hedged to CHF.

I have it setup with a mix of these (reproducing the MSCI alloc as close as possible), maxing out the nonhedged and then filling up to the requirement with the hedged one.


Last edited by gipfelisturmer; 02.06.2021 at 10:27.
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