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  #21  
Old 12.07.2021, 08:51
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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Wait, what? You knew the money was transferred improperly, but instead of letting it sit there or transferring back you have already spent it?? I guess Mrs Doolittle is right, time to sell the condo. That should at least pay for the lawyer(s).
I realise that I would have been better to immediately transfer the monies back.
However, I was living in Thailand and was not aware the monies were in the Swiss Account.
When the bank found out I was now registered non resident. The bank made me close my account so transferred the funds to Thailand account.
I still have 80% in the bank and gold.
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  #22  
Old 12.07.2021, 08:54
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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A huge buyer of gold, at about the previous peek in gold IIRC, no doubt been selling at a lower price to fund living expenses.
I had no gold at peak.
My gold holdings are up 18% from when I bought luckily.
Better than zero percent in bankrupt Swiss banks.
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  #23  
Old 12.07.2021, 08:56
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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Maybe you should change your username, perhaps Cashlessboy is more appropriate now
Tried to change it to SkintBoy but cannot change user name here.
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  #24  
Old 12.07.2021, 09:00
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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I realise that I would have been better to immediately transfer the monies back.
However, I was living in Thailand and was not aware the monies were in the Swiss Account.
When the bank found out I was now registered non resident. The bank made me close my account so transferred the funds to Thailand account.
I still have 80% in the bank and gold.
So it sounds like you do have the funds you need to pay this debt if you have 80% of the original sum and can sell assets (gold and property) to fund the rest?

Your posts allude to a catalogue of oversights and a lack of basic awareness over your financial affairs and legal entitlements. It's hard to believe you were not aware of such a significant transfer to your Swiss account (don't you get statements or notifications?) and considering how long this has been going on (around 5 years from your original thread) it doesn't seem like you have made the necessary efforts to inform yourself and get these things in order.

Get a new lawyer and a good accountant and get them quick to remove all of this doubt and get the situation resolved in the most efficient way possible.
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  #25  
Old 12.07.2021, 09:59
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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I am not clear from your posts who is asking you to pay money. Is the company asking for its money back (in which case they are presumably asking the other shareholders for the same)? Or the Ticino tax authorities? Or both?
It appaers to be the administrator of the company.
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  #26  
Old 12.07.2021, 10:00
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

Four years after the event of the withdrawl of cash from a company; is it possible to pay the monies back into the company and then do a voluntary liquidation avoiding the tax?
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  #27  
Old 12.07.2021, 10:37
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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Four years after the event of the withdrawl of cash from a company; is it possible to pay the monies back into the company and then do a voluntary liquidation avoiding the tax?
You have obviously never dealt with the tax authorities, their investigation branch nor been auditedÖ the answer is NO, as I already told you these people deal in facts not fairy tales.

You canít change the past, there is an audit trail in the bank records of every move that was made. Itís not tax avoidance at this point, it evasion and that is a very serious, one which attracts lots of penalties.

The companyís accountant is going to act in the best interests of the company not yours and the tax authorities are going to act in their best interests not yours. You are the amateur playing against the professionals and you are not doing at all well.

Get yourself a good lawyer before it is too late.
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  #28  
Old 12.07.2021, 11:32
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

It would be important to know what the reason is for the demand of repayment:
- is it because the company subsequently went bankrupt and the administrator is claiming back sums paid out to related parties (i.e. shareholders)
- is it because the tax authorities noticed that no withholding tax was deducted and is no claiming the withholding tax on top of the amounts that were paid out
- is it because of some other reason.

Depending on what it is, it may make sense to get a lawyer specialized in bankruptcy proceedings and/or a tax lawyer to have a look at it...
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  #29  
Old 12.07.2021, 11:40
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

Is he looking at fines or jail time?
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  #30  
Old 12.07.2021, 11:49
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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Is he looking at fines or jail time?
Fines due the date this occurred , only recently has tax evasion over 300k a year become a criminal matter.
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  #31  
Old 12.07.2021, 13:42
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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It would be important to know what the reason is for the demand of repayment:
- is it because the company subsequently went bankrupt and the administrator is claiming back sums paid out to related parties (i.e. shareholders)
- is it because the tax authorities noticed that no withholding tax was deducted and is no claiming the withholding tax on top of the amounts that were paid out
- is it because of some other reason.

Depending on what it is, it may make sense to get a lawyer specialized in bankruptcy proceedings and/or a tax lawyer to have a look at it...
The demand for payment is basically my mother (1st director) that likes doing whatever she wants decided to transfer the sale proceeds of the company building into personal bank accounts of the shareholders.
i.e. illegally distributed funds.
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  #32  
Old 12.07.2021, 13:58
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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The demand for payment is basically my mother (1st director) that likes doing whatever she wants decided to transfer the sale proceeds of the company building into personal bank accounts of the shareholders.
i.e. illegally distributed funds.
You mentioned she has Alzheimers. Why is she / can she still be a director?

When my mom had this we were strongly advised to take over her (financial) matters and had this notarized
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  #33  
Old 12.07.2021, 14:19
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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You have obviously never dealt with the tax authorities, their investigation branch nor been auditedÖ the answer is NO, as I already told you these people deal in facts not fairy tales.

You canít change the past, there is an audit trail in the bank records of every move that was made. Itís not tax avoidance at this point, it evasion and that is a very serious, one which attracts lots of penalties.

The companyís accountant is going to act in the best interests of the company not yours and the tax authorities are going to act in their best interests not yours. You are the amateur playing against the professionals and you are not doing at all well.

Get yourself a good lawyer before it is too late.
This has no dealings with the tax authorities.
I understand however that there is no tax on capital gains in Switzerland.

The monies transfered by my mother (1st director) to personal accounts of shareholders are in effect; "illegal distributed funds".
That is because there was no resolution to make a distribution.

However, if a resolution was passed to make a distribution, then withoholding tax (is it 35% ?) should have been made on those payments.
I would assume that that income would then be included on your personal tax return with the tax credit.

There is no problem with the tax authorities yet, it is just the need to pay the witholding tax to the company if it is a distribution.

I am actually being chased by the administrator for the tax credit to be put into the company bank account.
I do have the bank funds to pay this.

I believe (have been told and need clarification) that it is possible to pay those back to the company and treat them as a loan from the company.
Is that correct?
I would then think that there are no tax implications on those monies.

I also understand that if the company then went into voluntary liquidation, the company would pay the shareholders the share capital and surplus monies back
I am also lead to believe that there is no capital gains tax on it.

I am therefore wondering if possible to put those monies back in the company account after 4 years in order to do that.

Isn't that tax avoidance as opposed to evasion?
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  #34  
Old 12.07.2021, 14:32
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

As others have said: get a lawyer. This is not the time to speculate how you might find a way out. You need specialized advice to avoid further ‚sh&t‘ so do not try to dig deeper, pay for some solid knowledge from an expert
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  #35  
Old 12.07.2021, 15:45
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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I believe (have been told and need clarification) that it is possible to pay those back to the company and treat them as a loan from the company.
Is that correct?
I would then think that there are no tax implications on those monies.

I also understand that if the company then went into voluntary liquidation, the company would pay the shareholders the share capital and surplus monies back
I am also lead to believe that there is no capital gains tax on it.

I am therefore wondering if possible to put those monies back in the company account after 4 years in order to do that.

Isn't that tax avoidance as opposed to evasion?
It sounds like you want to change the facts after the event. It sounds like what you propose would be difficult a week after the event, let alone 4 years.

You currently have the 'Father Ted' defence of 'the money was only resting in my account'.
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  #36  
Old 12.07.2021, 16:47
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

As others keep saying, get a good tax lawyer. I always recommend Kellerhals Carrard, or a firm of their standing that is well versed in international taxation. Don't use a small town lawyer whose clients are the local farmer/business etc.

To try and save a few hundred francs will end up costing you a lot more.
I'm also not sure why you have to pay 65%. Withholding is only 35% and if you are not resident in Switzerland you can claim most of this back.
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  #37  
Old 12.07.2021, 17:18
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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Isn't that tax avoidance as opposed to evasion?
You are entitled to your opinion, you are the one paying for it. Get a lawyer or continue your DIY, itís up to you.

Iím done with the fairy tales.
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  #38  
Old 12.07.2021, 17:19
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

FWIW, a director and a shareholder need not be the same thing. You can (still) be one without being another.
Without relevant documentation the tax authorities can jump to whatever conclusions they like.
Seems you were an investor, so the company would have owed you the initial amount regardless of your shareholding.
You could argue some of the money is loan repayment and the rest is a loan to you.

Good luck.
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  #39  
Old 12.07.2021, 19:12
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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FWIW, a director and a shareholder need not be the same thing. You can (still) be one without being another.
Without relevant documentation the tax authorities can jump to whatever conclusions they like.
Seems you were an investor, so the company would have owed you the initial amount regardless of your shareholding.
You could argue some of the money is loan repayment and the rest is a loan to you.

Good luck.
I am a 50% shareholder and was director of the company at the time.

My mother (1st director) transferred about chf 560,000 from the company account to my personal Swiss account in Oct 2015.
I was not aware until March 2016.
If I pay those back to the company then surely no tax implications as just a loan from the company to me.
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  #40  
Old 12.07.2021, 19:20
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Re: Sale Proceeds of Sale of a Building drawn out of company

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As others keep saying, get a good tax lawyer. I always recommend Kellerhals Carrard, or a firm of their standing that is well versed in international taxation. Don't use a small town lawyer whose clients are the local farmer/business etc.

To try and save a few hundred francs will end up costing you a lot more.
I'm also not sure why you have to pay 65%. Withholding is only 35% and if you are not resident in Switzerland you can claim most of this back.
I was 50% shareholder and a resident of Switzerland with Swiss Nationality.
My mother (1st director) transferred 580,000 chf from the company account to my personal account without my permission.
That, I have discovered was an "illegal distributed fund".
If it wants to become a distributed fund, then a witholding tax should have been deducted.
i.e. 580,000 x35% => 203,000 chf
I therefore would have to return 203,000 chf to the company for it to pay the tax which I have not done so far.
The reason I ahve not done so far is that I was wondering if I could return the 560,000 chf and everything ok?
Then put the company into voluntary liquidation and then be paid the share capital and surplus back tax free?
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