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  #21  
Old 26.07.2021, 15:24
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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I am currently putting everything together for my defence of the claim.
Hence I was asking questions here to get a feeling of my chances and direction to go.
I shall then present it to the court and see what they say.
After the outcome, I shall try and find a competent lawyer.

Is there a contract (offer ,acceptance consideration) is what I am working on now.
She took my shares (theft ?)
Value of those shares were stated by her husband as chf 750,000 because that is the price he offered me his at 6 months before.
I wrote to her stating that if she put any monies into my bank account from the company, that would be deemed as payment towards the shares she has purchased from me.
She subsequently went ahead, sold the building, put 50% of the monies that were left in the company bank account into my bank.
Is that a contract (offer, acceptance and consideration)?

The whole fiasco arose because she moved the funds from the company bank account despite me telling her that she cannot.
She has told my sister that she was doing it because the property lawyer had told her she could.
We both do not believe that as she is also an accountant.
Saying that she told me that the property lawyer was transfering my share directly to my account.
I told her that the property lawyer would have to deposit themonies into the company account.
She had a big tendancy to lie and deny things when she did contrary to what I said and hence since 2009, everything was put in writing by me and sent by recorded or certificate of post.

I always told her that I wish I had been an orphan.
I thought your mother has Alzheimer's & needs 24/7 care.
How could she do what you claim, it's a very odd story.
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  #22  
Old 26.07.2021, 15:29
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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The whole fiasco arose because she moved the funds from the company bank account despite me telling her that she cannot.
Well you subsequently moved the money to a 3rd party account in Thailand, rather than back into the company account, without consideration to pay any tax in CH.

When dealing with the court, you need to reference corporate laws, and sub-articles, and tax laws, and previous case history etc etc, it's not an armchair exercise.

I wish you luck!

Last edited by schoggiweggli; 26.07.2021 at 15:35. Reason: more
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  #23  
Old 26.07.2021, 15:51
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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I always told her that I wish I had been an orphan.
Your “fairy tale” does have a few inconsistencies regarding your mother’s health and her decisive actions (theft or merely cleaning up junk papers in a deserted office?) but the quote above might explain quite a few things...
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  #24  
Old 26.07.2021, 15:53
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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I thought your mother has Alzheimer's & needs 24/7 care.
How could she do what you claim, it's a very odd story.
She made the sale of the building and movement of funds in 2016.
I had nothing to do with her since.
The lawyer has said in his statement that she was perfectly normal when she made the sale and money transactions.
It makes it worse for me because she therefore has no excuse for her actions that I had warned her about.

She has supposedly been in a fast deteriating state for the last two and a half years.
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  #25  
Old 26.07.2021, 17:04
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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Where do I find one that has a clue in Ticino - Mendriso area?
Anyone have any recommendations?

From what I understand they are all a cartel and they even rotate as judges from time to time.
I can't help you with a recommendation in Mendriso, but Nicolas Schwarz at https://www.anwaltskanzlei-schwarz.ch is a fluent English speaker, specialised in this area of law and charges 250/hr + VAT. He's based in Zurich.

You could put all this sorry story to bed for 500 chuffs. Do it.
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  #26  
Old 26.07.2021, 17:12
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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You could put all this sorry story to bed for 500 chuffs. Do it.
Doubt the CHF 500.00 but second “do it
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  #27  
Old 26.07.2021, 17:18
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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Doubt the CHF 500.00 but second “do it
My calculation was 60 minutes decoding the clients' bluster, 45 minutes reading documentation and 15 minutes telling OP what he already knows
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  #28  
Old 26.07.2021, 18:27
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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Well you subsequently moved the money to a 3rd party account in Thailand, rather than back into the company account, without consideration to pay any tax in CH.

When dealing with the court, you need to reference corporate laws, and sub-articles, and tax laws, and previous case history etc etc, it's not an armchair exercise.

I wish you luck!
It never occured to me to return the monies to be honest.
I also believe that there is no capital gains and as I was treating it as a sale of my bearer shares there was no tax implications.
I discovered that she closed the company bank account after making the transactions to save future bank charges.
I suppose that could be a good excuse for not returning the monies.

Last edited by Cashboy; 26.07.2021 at 18:43.
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  #29  
Old 26.07.2021, 18:37
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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I can't help you with a recommendation in Mendriso, but Nicolas Schwarz at https://www.anwaltskanzlei-schwarz.ch is a fluent English speaker, specialised in this area of law and charges 250/hr + VAT. He's based in Zurich.

You could put all this sorry story to bed for 500 chuffs. Do it.

So you think this Nicholas Scwartz would only need 2 hours to read my explanations and paperwork to guide me how to approach this or cough up?
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  #30  
Old 26.07.2021, 19:19
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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So you think this Nicholas Scwartz would only need 2 hours to read my explanations and paperwork to guide me how to approach this or cough up?
Why not budget 2 days?
There’s a lot at stake.
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  #31  
Old 26.07.2021, 19:20
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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So you think this Nicholas Scwartz would only need 2 hours to read my explanations and paperwork to guide me how to approach this or cough up?
Honest answer is I don’t know. Nobody knows, because only you and your current representatives have all the facts. You’re not (at this stage) asking him to represent you or act on your behalf rather, you want a (second?) opinion on your options. Despite all the twists and turns of your predicament the case is, correct me if I’m wrong, a question of tax liability. Easy Peasy.
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  #32  
Old 26.07.2021, 22:07
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

IANAL but your explanation has assumptions that are entirely yours and not what the lawyers involved seem to think are legitimate arguments.

So the only thing you can do is spend your own money to get a second opinion from another lawyer instead of listening to the guy liquidating the company.

On a more emotional level: you arguing a value of the shares depending on what some other shareholder at some point said he thought they are worth (while trying to sell them, so for sure they overestimated the value). I don't understand why this would hold any weight. This money never existed and it was not some serious estimate or anything. Why get pissed about it?

Secondly you are arguing that since she somehow misused your bearer shares to sell the building without asking you first, you don't owe any taxes on those proceeds that ended up in your account.
At the end of the day it's company money that ended up in your account, your mother abusing her power to sell the building at a lower price than you wanted doesn't change anything for the canton.
She split the money equally after the sale (in an irregular way given it was company money but still), so your argument that she stole them sounds weak.

What's the husband thinking or doing about all this? Did he just pay the taxes and get out? What did the mother's curator do about her shares? Are you the last man standing arguing a different thing?

If you were born an orphan you would have no part of this money at all, you wouldn't be even thinking about ways to dodge taxes.
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  #33  
Old 27.07.2021, 08:28
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Re: Bearer Shares - azioni al portatore

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I treated the receipts of monies as part receipt of the sale of my shares to my mother.
I recorded the fact that I had no longer any shares on my personal Swiss tax return.
...
I have been sending statements requesting the balance of chf 210,000 with bank details to my mother every six months by recorded delivery
In your separate thread you said were investigating if the monies could be repaid and viewed as repayment of a loan and then liquidate the company. Now you say you were treating it as sale of shares all along and you have documentation. Your explanation to us is not consistent. Perhaps you are giving us hypothetical scenarios to brainstorm with the intent of retrospectively forging documentation.

The authorities were not born yesterday. Your credibility is surely low with them by your actions and if you are an accountant it makes it more difficult to demonstrate you were acting in good faith since as you said you know the money should not have been paid out like it was. You also mentioned your mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s 6 months before the sale. You also had a court case where a tenant you were trying to evict had an accident alone in a room with you which will also count against your credibility..

My advice, get it sorted, pay the fees and taxes and start working out how to earn the money back via other means
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