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Old 14.09.2021, 15:44
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Early retirement questions

I arrived in CH at age 25 and hence don't quite reach the full number of qualifying years to give me 100% state pension (AHV).



2 questions about early retirement:


1)If I decided to retire early and go live abroad outside the EU for a few years, I read on expatica that there is no way of paying voluntary contributions into the AHV but I remember a work colleague who left to go to Israel (around 2004 I think) who said he did just this (at that time) and said it was only for Swiss citizens and wasn't expensive. Have things changed or have I misunderstood something?



2) If I retired early and stayed in CH, I understand I still need to pay into the AHV (based on wealth etc) but do these count in any way towards pension entitlement at 65? (like class 2 or 3 contributions do in the UK..)



Thanks.
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Old 14.09.2021, 15:47
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Re: Early retirement questions

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I arrived in CH at age 25 and hence don't quite reach the full number of qualifying years to give me 100% state pension (AHV).



2 questions about early retirement:


1)If I decided to retire early and go live abroad outside the EU for a few years, I read on expatica that there is no way of paying voluntary contributions into the AHV but I remember a work colleague who left to go to Israel (around 2004 I think) who said he did just this (at that time) and said it was only for Swiss citizens and wasn't expensive. Have things changed or have I misunderstood something?



2) If I retired early and stayed in CH, I understand I still need to pay into the AHV (based on wealth etc) but do these count in any way towards pension entitlement at 65? (like class 2 or 3 contributions do in the UK..)



Thanks.
For 2, the answer is yes
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Old 14.09.2021, 15:55
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Re: Early retirement questions

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For 2, the answer is yes

So, would they send you a bill, and that year automatically counts as a qualifying year?
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Old 14.09.2021, 15:56
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Re: Early retirement questions

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So, would they send you a bill, and that year automatically counts as a qualifying year?
Yes, thats how it worked with someone I know.
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Old 14.09.2021, 16:04
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Re: Early retirement questions

Is it possible to contribute to the voluntary Swiss OASI/DI scheme when relocating to an EU or EFTA member state?
No.
EU, Icelandic, Liechtenstein, Norwegian and Swiss nationals can take out voluntary old-age, survivors’ and invalidity insurance, if:
  • they do not live in an EU or EFTA member state, and
  • they had uninterrupted insurance cover for at least five years immediately before their withdrawal from the Swiss compulsory insurance scheme.
Leaflet 10.02 - The voluntary old-age, survivors’ and disability insurance scheme contains all relevant information on voluntary old-age, survivors’ and invalidity insurance cover.


This, and a lot of other useful info, is in the AHV pamphlet called
Leaving Switzerland
and moving to an EU or EFTA member state

https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/880.e
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Old 14.09.2021, 20:31
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Re: Early retirement questions

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Is it possible to contribute to the voluntary Swiss OASI/DI scheme when relocating to an EU or EFTA member state?
No.
EU, Icelandic, Liechtenstein, Norwegian and Swiss nationals can take out voluntary old-age, survivors’ and invalidity insurance, if:
  • they do not live in an EU or EFTA member state, and
  • they had uninterrupted insurance cover for at least five years immediately before their withdrawal from the Swiss compulsory insurance scheme.
Leaflet 10.02 - The voluntary old-age, survivors’ and disability insurance scheme contains all relevant information on voluntary old-age, survivors’ and invalidity insurance cover.


This, and a lot of other useful info, is in the AHV pamphlet called
Leaving Switzerland
and moving to an EU or EFTA member state

https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/880.e
Yeah, this is something that really p****s me off. They prevent Swiss citizen from contributing to the Swiss OASI fund while living in the EU, yet they don't recognise your local EU contribution / years of contribution. That's ridiculous and it makes no sense that moving to a non-EU country basically turns out to be a better choice in these regards
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Old 14.09.2021, 21:39
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Re: Early retirement questions

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For 2, the answer is yes
This may be the crux for me. I reckon I can beat both you and eyebeebe to retirement (by age) However, I’ll need to find a solution for the AHV as most likely we will retire in Switzerland. Maybe a one-day-a-month ‘consulting’ gig could cover it?
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Old 14.09.2021, 21:57
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Re: Early retirement questions

As a Swiss when you move to an Non EU country you can opt to continue to pay into AHV but then you are paying both yours and employer contribution so it can be a high payment for a payout that may or not happen given the state of the finances as well as it's called to 1.5 for working spouses (no matter if both contributed fully).

We opted not to do it for our time aborad and put the money aside as we believe the investment we make is higher. So do your own calculations and see what is the gap Vs what you would pay in etc.
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Old 14.09.2021, 22:09
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Re: Early retirement questions

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Yeah, this is something that really p****s me off. They prevent Swiss citizen from contributing to the Swiss OASI fund while living in the EU, yet they don't recognise your local EU contribution / years of contribution. That's ridiculous and it makes no sense that moving to a non-EU country basically turns out to be a better choice in these regards
As I understand it, upon reaching retirement age, you'd then be entitled to two old-age pensions: one from the Swiss for your years of contribution up until you left, and the other from the EU country for the years of contribution made in that country. Neither country adds in years of contribution you made in the other country, but they each pay out their own pension.

Still, annoying for a Swiss citizen who just wants to carry on with the regular Swiss insurance.
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Old 14.09.2021, 22:12
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Re: Early retirement questions

There's more info here:
https://www.ch.ch/en/gaps-contribution/
Voluntary OASI / IV
If you are a Swiss or EU/EFTA citizen and relocate to a country outside the EU/EFTA, you can pay into the voluntary OASI/IV scheme provided you have been insured under the compulsory OASI/IV/EO/(ALV) insurance scheme for five consecutive years prior to moving abroad. You must apply within a year of having been insured under the compulsory scheme to the Swiss representation (embassy or consulate) responsible for your place of residence or to the Swiss compensation office in Geneva.

If you are employed, you pay 9.8% of your income in contributions. Spouses, registered partners and children of persons with a voluntary OASI/IV insurance are not automatically insured, and so need to be insured separately .

If you are not employed, your contributions are considered to be paid, provided your spouse or registered partner is employed and made contributions of at least CHF 1,844 per year. Insured persons who are not employed pay a contribution based on the investment and retirement incomes. The minimum contribution for voluntary insurance is CHF 922 per year, and the maximum contribution, CHF 23,050 per year. For more details, see factsheet: ‘10.02 - Voluntary Old Age, Survivors' and Invalidity Insurance.’
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Old 15.09.2021, 07:45
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Re: Early retirement questions

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This may be the crux for me. I reckon I can beat both you and eyebeebe to retirement (by age)
I hope that you are able to do so without sacrificing the now and will be able to have a comfortable retirement. From the little I‘ve read of FIRE it seems to be all about living like a hermit while working and eating beans 3 times a day in retirement. That really isn‘t my plan. If it were, I could probably stop tomorrow.
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Old 15.09.2021, 08:03
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Re: Early retirement questions

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I hope that you are able to do so without sacrificing the now and will be able to have a comfortable retirement. From the little I‘ve read of FIRE it seems to be all about living like a hermit while working and eating beans 3 times a day in retirement. That really isn‘t my plan. If it were, I could probably stop tomorrow.
Absolutely! I am sacrificing the now to a certain extent but really only so far as size of current dwelling and the car we drive. I love food and wine, and combined with good company there’s little more one needs. No real sacrifices being made in this regard now or later. On the contrary, I’m continually procuring fine Bordeaux and Burgundy to liquidate in retirement

It’s possible if things go well then it will be more a question of can I afford to charter a 20m yacht or 40m. This leads to some very important advice for all readers. Remember, if it floats, flies or fu*ks you’re always better off renting!
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Old 15.09.2021, 08:17
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Re: Early retirement questions

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No real sacrifices being made in this regard now or later. On the contrary, I’m continually procuring fine Bordeaux and Burgundy to liquidate in retirement
How's your liver?


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Old 15.09.2021, 08:54
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Re: Early retirement questions

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Absolutely! I am sacrificing the now to a certain extent but really only so far as size of current dwelling and the car we drive. I love food and wine, and combined with good company there’s little more one needs. No real sacrifices being made in this regard now or later. On the contrary, I’m continually procuring fine Bordeaux and Burgundy to liquidate in retirement

It’s possible if things go well then it will be more a question of can I afford to charter a 20m yacht or 40m. This leads to some very important advice for all readers. Remember, if it floats, flies or fu*ks you’re always better off renting!
A man after my own heart. I expect that the Bordeaux and friends that I have been buying and will continue to buy until retirement will keep me going until my deathbed.

If I am to believe Firecalc, the Latour 2009 I own will be for drinking rather than selling and if some of its wilder predictions come true, I‘ll be drinking it on my own 40m yacht because I‘ll have enough capital that the cost doesn‘t matter.
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Old 15.09.2021, 08:56
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Re: Early retirement questions

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I hope that you are able to do so without sacrificing the now and will be able to have a comfortable retirement. From the little I‘ve read of FIRE it seems to be all about living like a hermit while working and eating beans 3 times a day in retirement. That really isn‘t my plan. If it were, I could probably stop tomorrow.
yeah, those guys are extreme. they way i look at it, i have a certain amount of money and i need to decide how much of it i spend now versus later. and you can grow the amount money available, but it's a trade-off with having to put more work/effort in.

an interesting exercise is what you would do with infinite money. yeah, i'd pay off debts, quit my job, do up the house (not even buy a new one) and then what? actually, for me, not too much different to what i'm doing now. biggest change would be the time freed up. i don't feel that money is really a limit on my life now - possibly because the timecrunch and lack of flexibility with 2 young kids is a greater limit.

now, i can imagine there being some cases where you do have to sacrifice. e.g. if you've been stupid and racked up a lot of credit card debt and need to pay it off asap. otherwise, i think it would be best to balance your life so that you don't deprive yourself now BUT also importantly, that you don't deprive yourself in the future.
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Old 15.09.2021, 09:07
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Re: Early retirement questions

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yeah, those guys are extreme. they way i look at it, i have a certain amount of money and i need to decide how much of it i spend now versus later. and you can grow the amount money available, but it's a trade-off with having to put more work/effort in.

an interesting exercise is what you would do with infinite money. yeah, i'd pay off debts, quit my job, do up the house (not even buy a new one) and then what? actually, for me, not too much different to what i'm doing now. biggest change would be the time freed up. i don't feel that money is really a limit on my life now - possibly because the timecrunch and lack of flexibility with 2 young kids is a greater limit.

now, i can imagine there being some cases where you do have to sacrifice. e.g. if you've been stupid and racked up a lot of credit card debt and need to pay it off asap. otherwise, i think it would be best to balance your life so that you don't deprive yourself now BUT also importantly, that you don't deprive yourself in the future.
I think, people will not like this, the compromise really lies in the definition of "deprive" or "afford". Time invested in kids IS the best investment. You only get one shot, as opposed to the renting Polymath mentioned earlier. Lazying out on a yacht sounds ok for a week, seriously. I like cooking for others but eat mostly raw food and watch out for microbiome - so the idea of lush life some have after they quit their professional lives...is mostly boring, with slow but sure cognitive decline. I think moderate now and fun but healthy tomorrow sounds the best for me, FIRE or not. Time is precious now, because it saves you energy resources and health. More time, less stress, longer and better life. Money affects this only partially. But I come from a Bohemian culture of (yacht-free) hedonists, am.not into much ascetism, either. Still - People who need little are happy.
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Old 15.09.2021, 09:08
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Re: Early retirement questions

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A man after my own heart. I expect that the Bordeaux and friends that I have been buying and will continue to buy until retirement will keep me going until my deathbed.

If I am to believe Firecalc, the Latour 2009 I own will be for drinking rather than selling and if some of its wilder predictions come true, I‘ll be drinking it on my own 40m yacht because I‘ll have enough capital that the cost doesn‘t matter.
Nice! Let me know if you need a drinking buddy
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Old 15.09.2021, 09:19
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Re: Early retirement questions

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yeah, those guys are extreme. they way i look at it, i have a certain amount of money and i need to decide how much of it i spend now versus later. and you can grow the amount money available, but it's a trade-off with having to put more work/effort in.

an interesting exercise is what you would do with infinite money. yeah, i'd pay off debts, quit my job, do up the house (not even buy a new one) and then what? actually, for me, not too much different to what i'm doing now. biggest change would be the time freed up. i don't feel that money is really a limit on my life now - possibly because the timecrunch and lack of flexibility with 2 young kids is a greater limit.

now, i can imagine there being some cases where you do have to sacrifice. e.g. if you've been stupid and racked up a lot of credit card debt and need to pay it off asap. otherwise, i think it would be best to balance your life so that you don't deprive yourself now BUT also importantly, that you don't deprive yourself in the future.
Precisely. I feel time is more of a limiting factor now. Admittedly this is a very privileged position to be in and being made redundant before I am ready to quit would throw a spanner in the works.

With infinite money:
I would live somewhere with better weather - retirement plan
I would spend more time doing sport - retirement plan
I would spend more time cooking from scratch (including things like making my own bacon) - retirement plan
I would spend more time in the pub - retirement plan
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Old 15.09.2021, 09:24
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Time invested in kids IS the best investment.

I say it is the worst investment and a complete waste of time
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Old 15.09.2021, 09:26
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Re: Early retirement questions

You also have to be aware of hedonic adaptation. I recall being taken to a restaurant with an ex-gf in the mountains. It was a place she'd gone many times for skiing as a child.

Afterwards, she turned to me somewhat disappointed and said: "You know, a few years ago, I would have thought that this was a good meal." After a few years of living in London and enjoying the restaurants there, she'd been spoiled and her tastes and expectations shifted. Yet her subjective experience of enjoyment as a kid would not have been that much different than enjoyment at a posh restaurant in London.

In the same way, we can spend more and more on marginal improvements (if there are improvements at all - just look at audiophiles and their super-expensive equipment with only placebo-like benefits) which don't really benefit us at all.
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