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  #341  
Old 28.02.2018, 23:21
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

Hi guys, I intend to leave Switzerland soon and would like to know by how much taking lump sum from vested benefit account and from 3a pillar are taxed in EU countries like Portugal, Spain or Luxemburg. France, for instance taxes 6,75% but once it is paid, the Swiss tax at source can be reclaimed. Thanks for your help.
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  #342  
Old 26.04.2018, 11:44
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

I'm moving back to the USA in 4 months and I'm having a hard time understanding what happens to the purchases ("rachats") I made into the 2nd pillar over the last three years.

On the one hand, my bank tells me that I cannot set up a vested benefits account as an American citizen going back to the USA. On the other hand, my insurance company tells me that I cannot withdraw the voluntary contributions (in cash) unless they are older than 3 years.

Which one is true?
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  #343  
Old 26.04.2018, 11:57
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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Which one is true?
Both I suspect, but generally your employer will automatically open a vested benefit account on your behalf if you dont nominate a provider of your own... which you may not be able to do given Swiss banks wont touch USians with a barge pole as you are finding out.
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  #344  
Old 26.04.2018, 11:58
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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I'm moving back to the USA in 4 months and I'm having a hard time understanding what happens to the purchases ("rachats") I made into the 2nd pillar over the last three years.

On the one hand, my bank tells me that I cannot set up a vested benefits account as an American citizen going back to the USA. On the other hand, my insurance company tells me that I cannot withdraw the voluntary contributions (in cash) unless they are older than 3 years.
At least you should be able to get an vested benefit account with the "Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung BVG" http://www.chaeis.net/en/fzk-vested-...-accounts.html This also the institution were your money will most likely be transferred to if you simply do nothing.

An other provider which may accept you is Liberty http://www.liberty-vorsorge.ch . They also offer funds option, which might or might not be available to you as an US tax person. As they are situated in canton Schwyz the payout tax will be one of the lowest (applicable if you either taxed at source OR if you are non Swiss resident at payout time).

If you made purchases within the last three years you will have to pay back some if not all of the tax savings you made. Contact your cantons tax office for further details. They are normally very helpful and there answer will help your 2nd pillar provider to make the payout.

If you have declared all the 2nd pillar contributions, including those of your employer to the IRS, the payout should be only taxable in Switzerland. So it make sense to park it some more years in a vested benefit account.
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  #345  
Old 26.04.2018, 12:16
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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At least you should be able to get an vested benefit account with the "Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung BVG" http://www.chaeis.net/en/fzk-vested-...-accounts.html This also the institution were your money will most likely be transferred to if you simply do nothing.
Thanks. I see they're based in Zurich, which is not great from a tax perspective. In any case, it's good to know about the "default solution".

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An other provider which may accept you is Liberty http://www.liberty-vorsorge.ch . They also offer funds option, which might or might not be available to you as an US tax person. As they are situated in canton Schwyz the payout tax will be one of the lowest (applicable if you either taxed at source OR if you are non Swiss resident at payout time).
I have looked into a couple of options in Schwyz but they were all upset by the US-citizen-moving-to-the-USA part. In addition, even if they were happy to provide a parking space for my money, their high fees would erode the tax advantage for the amount at stake (< CHF 50k). This is the reason why I have been looking at options in Aargau instead.

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If you made purchases within the last three years you will have to pay back some if not all of the tax savings you made. Contact your cantons tax office for further details. They are normally very helpful and there answer will help your 2nd pillar provider to make the payout.
My canton's tax office has told me that I will pay the standard tax at cashout unless I withdraw it earlier than three years. This is very confusing because it seems to be impossible to withdraw anything earlier than three years. Obsolete guidelines/laws?

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If you have declared all the 2nd pillar contributions, including those of your employer to the IRS, the payout should be only taxable in Switzerland. So it make sense to park it some more years in a vested benefit account.
If possible, I would do away with all wealth management services (and fees) and do all the trading myself.
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  #346  
Old 26.04.2018, 12:52
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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My canton's tax office has told me that I will pay the standard tax at cashout unless I withdraw it earlier than three years. This is very confusing because it seems to be impossible to withdraw anything earlier than three years. Obsolete guidelines/laws?
Not impossible. Your pension provider is wrong, just higher taxed as the tax authority says. Get in contact with the cantons tax office again and ask them for a paper you could forward to your pension provider which explains how to proceed if one wishes to withdraw before the 3 year cool of period.

PS: Standard payout tax for CHF 50'000 (single, no kids, no church affiliation) in Aarau, Schwyz and Zurich is 1633, 756 and 2'279 respectively.
(Based on regular payout tax in the above communes using calculator ar https://www.postfinance.ch/de/privat...ontax/Index.do tax at source might me different, but the above figures should be valid as ballpark figures.)
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  #347  
Old 26.04.2018, 13:48
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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Your pension provider is wrong, just higher taxed as the tax authority says. Get in contact with the cantons tax office again and ask them for a paper you could forward to your pension provider which explains how to proceed if one wishes to withdraw before the 3 year cool of period.
The pension provider is SwissLife and they are pointing at their terms and conditions and this notice:
Quote:
Qu'advient-il des rachats des trois dernières années dans l'institution de
prévoyance?

Dans le cadre d'un versement en espèces, les rachats des trois dernières années ne
peuvent pas être perçus sous forme de capital. En ce qui concerne l'utilisation: voir la
rubrique «Je n'ai pas de nouvel employeur».
In German:
Quote:
Was geschieht mit Einkäufen der letzten 3 Jahre in die Vorsorgeeinrichtung?
Die Einkäufe der letzten 3 Jahre können bei einer Barauszahlung nicht in Kapitalform
bezogen werden. Betreffend Verwendung: siehe Rubrik «Ich habe keinen neuen
Arbeitgeber».
This is going to be awkward one way or another because either SwissLife wrote wrong information in their terms and conditions or the tax office is wrong. I'd expect one of the largest insurers in Switzerland to double and triple check facts before writing them down but I am starting to think they messed up in this case.
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  #348  
Old 26.04.2018, 17:03
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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Hi guys, I intend to leave Switzerland soon and would like to know by how much taking lump sum from vested benefit account and from 3a pillar are taxed in EU countries like Portugal, Spain or Luxemburg. France, for instance taxes 6,75% but once it is paid, the Swiss tax at source can be reclaimed. Thanks for your help.
If you reclaim the withholding tax, you will be fully taxable in the new country. You may have additional taxes to pay in any case, withholding tax does not mean final tax payable in all jurisdictions.
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  #349  
Old 07.05.2018, 17:50
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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If you reclaim the withholding tax, you will be fully taxable in the new country. You may have additional taxes to pay in any case, withholding tax does not mean final tax payable in all jurisdictions.
Thank you for your reply. I actually found the answer for Portugal (No taxation on withdrawals from vested benefit nor from Pillar3a accounts). For those who intend to retire (early) in the sun, I have found the info in this interesting article (in german) https://www.handelszeitung.ch/invest...wissen-sollten
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  #350  
Old 28.05.2018, 12:10
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

Can ahv be transferred to a non EU country where there are no similar pension schemes ?
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  #351  
Old 28.05.2018, 13:31
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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Can ahv be transferred to a non EU country where there are no similar pension schemes ?
No but possibly refunded if you have been here less than a year.
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  #352  
Old 11.06.2018, 13:35
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

Question for our wise members:


Living in Zug, salary > 120k and income tax less than 9%.


Does it make sense to have Pillar 3? Yes I gain 1500 chf now on my tax return but pay 10% tax when I take them out. Also I surrender liquidity of funds instead of having ability to immediately use.


Then gains taxed at 10% instead of just sticking them to Fundsmith or an ETF with 0% capital gains tax.


Am I right in thinking that unless your income tax is > 20% there's no point to use Pillar 3, especially if you live in a low tax canton like Zug?
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  #353  
Old 11.06.2018, 14:25
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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living in Zug, salary > 120k and income tax less than 9%.


Does it make sense to have Pillar 3? Yes I gain 1500 chf now on my tax return but pay 10% tax when I take them out. Also I surrender liquidity of funds instead of having ability to immediately use.

Pay out tax is normally a fifth of the normal tax for the same amount.
A CHF 100k pillar 3a payout is taxed at 2.124% or 3.517% married and unmarried respectively. Commune Zug.
https://www.postfinance.ch/de/privat...ontax/Index.do

But as you correctly say pillar 3a has a hidden capital gains tax and the lower your marginal tax rate is, the worse pillar 3a.
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  #354  
Old 24.06.2018, 23:18
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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[...] and income tax less than 9%.
Does it make sense to have Pillar 3?
Investing on your own is the better option in many cases and especially in your case.
More flexibility, lower fees (cheapest 100% Stocks 3a is roughly 0.52% p/a whereas with ETFs you can easily stay below 0.10%). Over time, the tax savings get eradicated.
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  #355  
Old 22.10.2018, 14:53
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Re: Swiss pensions- annual deductible amount pro rated

Hi
For a Pillar 3a
If I started by employment and life in Switzerland on 1st August the tax deductible for 2018 is full of the 6,768 CHF sum? Or is pro rated for the remaining period of the year (5 months Aug-Dec) e.g 2820 CHF?
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  #356  
Old 22.10.2018, 15:27
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Re: Swiss pensions- annual deductible amount pro rated

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Hi
For a Pillar 3a
If I started by employment and life in Switzerland on 1st August the tax deductible for 2018 is full of the 6,768 CHF sum? Or is pro rated for the remaining period of the year (5 months Aug-Dec) e.g 2820 CHF?
Full amount, not pro rated.

Analog to the deduction of work related education expenses which are also not pro rated. See Section 4.2 Kreisschreiben Nr. 42. and Art. 33 DBG https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a33
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  #357  
Old 22.10.2018, 15:47
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

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Hi guys, I intend to leave Switzerland soon and would like to know by how much taking lump sum from vested benefit account and from 3a pillar are taxed in EU countries like Portugal, Spain or Luxemburg. France, for instance taxes 6,75% but once it is paid, the Swiss tax at source can be reclaimed. Thanks for your help.
For France, from June this year:

Don't forget another 9% of social deductions... .

"Taxation par la France du capital. L’imposition est établie au barème progressif de l’impôt sur le revenu, ou par application d’un prélèvement forfaitaire libératoire de 7,5 % avant abattement (dispositif optionnel dérogatoire, soumis à conditions). Votre capital subit également une taxation à 9,1 % pour les prélèvements sociaux.
Remboursement par la Suisse du prélèvement à la source, sur présentation du quitus fiscal français, l’année qui suit le versement du capital."
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  #358  
Old 22.10.2018, 16:41
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

Ouch ! Thanks for the info.
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  #359  
Old 22.10.2018, 18:04
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Re: Swiss pensions- annual deductible amount pro rated

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Full amount, not pro rated.

Analog to the deduction of work related education expenses which are also not pro rated. See Section 4.2 Kreisschreiben Nr. 42. and Art. 33 DBG https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a33
Great thanks for the answer!
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  #360  
Old 01.12.2018, 13:31
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Re: Swiss pensions consolidated summary

Not sure if this is the right place to post, but the VIAC discussion topic has been cancelled?
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