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  #1141  
Old 15.05.2019, 21:45
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Re: Gold Buying

I am thinking very seriously to put money in Gold and Silver in physical form, not much, may be to put 10k chf at each.
Once markets are stable, and new economic cycle starts sell back metals to Dealer.

My requirements:

1) Swiss based company both - dealer and storing co, bars should be of swiss origin as well
2) Storage location should be CH or LI
3) Segregated storage with possibility to visit and easily take gold out
4) Outside of the banking system
5) Good spread for buy back
6) Cheap yearly storage costs and insurance.
7) No VAT payable for Silver
8) Good contractual terms with storage company.
8) Dealer should not storage itself.

I have made some research, I have attached pics from Excel.

My conclusion is that cheapest is Echtgeld, site is quite old, but they offer best spread, they do not storage, but have partnership with two companies
Swiss Gold Safe and ORSUISSE. both looks fine to me.
storage cost around 1% p.a.


Another option is Geiger Edelmetal.

Probably better to buy gold at one place and silver in another just for security.

What I would appreciate if anyone experienced can give advise on the legal side and contractual terms with the storage company any nuances I need to know.

link to Excel with tables: https://yadi.sk/i/IqojSCDioXhnhw
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  #1142  
Old 15.05.2019, 22:07
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Re: Gold Buying

1% costs on an investment with zero yield, I find the concept highly amusing.
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I am thinking very seriously to put money in Gold and Silver in physical form, not much, may be to put 10k chf at each.
Once markets are stable, and new economic cycle starts sell back metals to Dealer.

My requirements:

1) Swiss based company both - dealer and storing co, bars should be of swiss origin as well
2) Storage location should be CH or LI
3) Segregated storage with possibility to visit and easily take gold out
4) Outside of the banking system
5) Good spread for buy back
6) Cheap yearly storage costs and insurance.
7) No VAT payable for Silver
8) Good contractual terms with storage company.
8) Dealer should not storage itself.

I have made some research, I have attached pics from Excel.

My conclusion is that cheapest is Echtgeld, site is quite old, but they offer best spread, they do not storage, but have partnership with two companies
Swiss Gold Safe and ORSUISSE. both looks fine to me.
storage cost around 1% p.a.


Another option is Geiger Edelmetal.

Probably better to buy gold at one place and silver in another just for security.

What I would appreciate if anyone experienced can give advise on the legal side and contractual terms with the storage company any nuances I need to know.

link to Excel with tables: https://yadi.sk/i/IqojSCDioXhnhw
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  #1143  
Old 16.05.2019, 00:18
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Re: Gold Buying

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1% costs on an investment with zero yield, I find the concept highly amusing.
gold isn't an investment, it's an insurance policy.
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  #1144  
Old 16.05.2019, 07:19
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Re: Gold Buying

If they are charging you 1% for storage costs then they know how much you hold. Itís not outside the banking system and itís not in your custody. There are plenty of gold dealers in central Geneva who will buy or sell gold. They will need your proof of identity and address. You can then put it in a safe deposit box that you rent and to which only YOU hold the key, or you could just bury it in your garden.

If you canít be bothered with all that, use your credit card to buy some bitcoin in about 5 minutes. Donít lose your key.


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I am thinking very seriously to put money in Gold and Silver in physical form, not much, may be to put 10k chf at each.
Once markets are stable, and new economic cycle starts sell back metals to Dealer.

My requirements:

1) Swiss based company both - dealer and storing co, bars should be of swiss origin as well
2) Storage location should be CH or LI
3) Segregated storage with possibility to visit and easily take gold out
4) Outside of the banking system
5) Good spread for buy back
6) Cheap yearly storage costs and insurance.
7) No VAT payable for Silver
8) Good contractual terms with storage company.
8) Dealer should not storage itself.

I have made some research, I have attached pics from Excel.

My conclusion is that cheapest is Echtgeld, site is quite old, but they offer best spread, they do not storage, but have partnership with two companies
Swiss Gold Safe and ORSUISSE. both looks fine to me.
storage cost around 1% p.a.


Another option is Geiger Edelmetal.

Probably better to buy gold at one place and silver in another just for security.

What I would appreciate if anyone experienced can give advise on the legal side and contractual terms with the storage company any nuances I need to know.

link to Excel with tables: https://yadi.sk/i/IqojSCDioXhnhw
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  #1145  
Old 16.05.2019, 07:51
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Re: Gold Buying

Bitcoin is Gold 2.0. It has advantages in convenience, storage, transportability, and divisibility.

You are also getting in before the millionaires start to allocate part of their portfolio.

There are around 40 million millionaires. The number of bitcoins will never exceed 21 million. They canít all own one.

Today there are around 17 million of the 21 million bitcoins already mined. The remaining 4 million will be mined over the next 50 years.

Bitcoin ownership is concentrated in the hands of a small elite. There are only 750í000 bitcoin addresses with more than one bitcoin. Most of them are early adopter computer geeks. Very few of them are traditional millionaires.

If bitcoin gets adopted as an asset by the millionaires, then there would be a lot of demand and the price would have to rise.

Compare the adoption rate with email. Ten years after email became commercially available (Lotus Notes was the first commercial email system), it had 10 million users but most of the world still didnít know what it was. A decade later, almost half the planet held an email address, 200 times as many users.
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  #1146  
Old 16.05.2019, 09:39
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Re: Gold Buying

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Compare the adoption rate with email. Ten years after email became commercially available (Lotus Notes was the first commercial email system), it had 10 million users but most of the world still didn’t know what it was. A decade later, almost half the planet held an email address, 200 times as many users.
By which you actually say that blockchain is to stay but it's open which applications, let alone products, will survive. With at most a few transaction per second, Bitcoin seems unlikely to reach a broad range of applications as you can rarely afford to wait multiple days until your transaction has been settled (or bounced, for that matter).

Cue Kodak for instance, they are trying to create a universe that focuses around the IP of fotography, with the drawback of course that (contrary to BTC) they will take their cut at each and every step of the way. This kind of concept may well be the way forward.
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  #1147  
Old 16.05.2019, 10:25
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Re: Gold Buying

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Bitcoin is Gold 2.0. It has advantages in convenience, storage, transportability, and divisibility.

The difference is that gold is seen as something of high value since 5000 years and alchemy has never been successful.
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  #1148  
Old 16.05.2019, 11:32
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Re: Gold Buying

Bitcoins and blockchains have been around for 10 years and i still don't really see it taking off like any other sensible tech does.


It is a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist
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  #1149  
Old 16.05.2019, 11:41
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Re: Gold Buying

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If they are charging you 1% for storage costs then they know how much you hold. Itís not outside the banking system and itís not in your custody. There are plenty of gold dealers in central Geneva who will buy or sell gold. They will need your proof of identity and address. You can then put it in a safe deposit box that you rent and to which only YOU hold the key, or you could just bury it in your garden.

If you canít be bothered with all that, use your credit card to buy some bitcoin in about 5 minutes. Donít lose your key.
Precious metals are Unique and has true value, Bitcoin is not. There are hundreds ISO everyday with new currencies, nothing makes them special. What is special is the block chain technology and limit to emission. What would make bitcoin special if it will be backed by gold or anything else.

Any way the idea is just to speculate with the price of the metals. having it as 20 - 30% of portfolio, but instead of ETFs in physically backed option.

Trickyt57 you wrote that there are vaults in Geneva, where I can put privately gold/silver. please advise

1) Companies who provide that service?
2) Do I need to declare what i storage in Vault?
3) I don t see anyway to hide the content of my Vault to authorities, since i need to declare it in my tax form as part of my wealth.
4) How easy it will be to sell back to dealer afterwards? could the spread be large, as they need to check the bars?

thank you in advance.
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  #1150  
Old 16.05.2019, 11:42
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Re: Gold Buying

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Bitcoins and blockchains have been around for 10 years and i still don't really see it taking off like any other sensible tech does.


It is a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist
the problem it solves is providing a digital currency with some independence of government authorities see common use in dark web markets, blackmail/extortion threats and where government is failing (hyperinflation situations).
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  #1151  
Old 16.05.2019, 12:01
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Re: Gold Buying

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Bitcoin is Gold 2.0. It has advantages in convenience, storage, transportability, and divisibility.

You are also getting in before the millionaires start to allocate part of their portfolio.

There are around 40 million millionaires. The number of bitcoins will never exceed 21 million. They can’t all own one.

Today there are around 17 million of the 21 million bitcoins already mined. The remaining 4 million will be mined over the next 50 years.

Bitcoin ownership is concentrated in the hands of a small elite. There are only 750’000 bitcoin addresses with more than one bitcoin. Most of them are early adopter computer geeks. Very few of them are traditional millionaires.

If bitcoin gets adopted as an asset by the millionaires, then there would be a lot of demand and the price would have to rise.

Compare the adoption rate with email. Ten years after email became commercially available (Lotus Notes was the first commercial email system), it had 10 million users but most of the world still didn’t know what it was. A decade later, almost half the planet held an email address, 200 times as many users.
But gold is shiny, makes you feel like a Roman Emperor when you fondle it, and can be used as a weapon after the economic system collapses.

Last time I checked, bitcoin didn't have these features, so I conclude it is not Gold 2.0.

"If bitcoin gets adopted as an asset by the millionaires, then there would be a lot of demand and the price would have to rise. "
Good point. That's the same reason I keep all my old coke cans. When the billionaires all want it, I'll be rich!!
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  #1152  
Old 16.05.2019, 12:16
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Re: Gold Buying

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Bitcoin is Gold 2.0. It has advantages in convenience, storage, transportability, and divisibility.

You are also getting in before the millionaires start to allocate part of their portfolio.

There are around 40 million millionaires. The number of bitcoins will never exceed 21 million. They canít all own one.

Today there are around 17 million of the 21 million bitcoins already mined. The remaining 4 million will be mined over the next 50 years.

If bitcoin gets adopted as an asset by the millionaires, then there would be a lot of demand and the price would have to rise.


Compare the adoption rate with email. Ten years after email became commercially available (Lotus Notes was the first commercial email system), it had 10 million users but most of the world still didnít know what it was. A decade later, almost half the planet held an email address, 200 times as many users.
I created MCR Coin, there will be only 10 million of them in total, so will be worth even more than Bitcoin!

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 16.05.2019 at 12:40.
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  #1153  
Old 16.05.2019, 12:27
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Re: Gold Buying

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I created MCR Coin, there will be only 10 million of them in total, so will be worth even more than Bitcoin!

Better get and Phil our boots whilst we can then
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  #1154  
Old 16.05.2019, 12:28
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Re: Gold Buying

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Compare the adoption rate with email. Ten years after email became commercially available (Lotus Notes was the first commercial email system), it had 10 million users but most of the world still didn’t know what it was. A decade later, almost half the planet held an email address, 200 times as many users.
Lotus Notes 1.0 was released in 1989, but its email system was not based on SMTP as we know and use today but was propitiatory. SMTP and support was added to Lotus Notes in version 5.0 published 1999. Only then could Lotus user receive and send e-mail from and to the World Wide Web. Nevertheless SMTP was first published 1981 (RFC 788) and its roots go all the way back to the early 1970ies. Microsoft also added SMTP support to its Exchange Server in version 5.0. But that was already in 1997. Before that and even some time after there was one name which rulled the market of internet e-mail clients: Eudora, developed by Steve Dorner back in 1988, even before Lotus Notes saw the light of the dawn.
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  #1155  
Old 16.05.2019, 12:41
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Re: Gold Buying

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Better get and Phil our boots whilst we can then
For my EF friends I will sell at considerably less than potential value. A special price of only 5'000 CHF per MCR Coin. Limited availability!
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  #1156  
Old 16.05.2019, 13:13
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Re: Gold Buying

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Lotus Notes 1.0 was released in 1989, but its email system was not based on SMTP as we know and use today but was propitiatory. SMTP and support was added to Lotus Notes in version 5.0 published 1999. Only then could Lotus user receive and send e-mail from and to the World Wide Web. Nevertheless SMTP was first published 1981 (RFC 788) and its roots go all the way back to the early 1970ies. Microsoft also added SMTP support to its Exchange Server in version 5.0. But that was already in 1997. Before that and even some time after there was one name which rulled the market of internet e-mail clients: Eudora, developed by Steve Dorner back in 1988, even before Lotus Notes saw the light of the dawn.



That was then when it took 3 years to bring a car to market, today, it all moves a whole lot faster.....
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Old 16.05.2019, 19:37
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Re: Gold Buying

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Precious metals are Unique and has true value, Bitcoin is not. There are hundreds ISO everyday with new currencies, nothing makes them special. What is special is the block chain technology and limit to emission. What would make bitcoin special if it will be backed by gold or anything else.

Trickyt57 you wrote that there are vaults in Geneva, where I can put privately gold/silver. please advise

1) Companies who provide that service?
2) Do I need to declare what i storage in Vault?
3) I don t see anyway to hide the content of my Vault to authorities, since i need to declare it in my tax form as part of my wealth.
4) How easy it will be to sell back to dealer afterwards? could the spread be large, as they need to check the bars?

thank you in advance.
1) Degussa. There is also a vault company I visited once not far from the station. You can google ďGeneva safety deposit boxesĒ
2) You donít need to tell the safety deposit company what is in your box. They donít care if it is your girlfriendís knickers, or a valuable artefact. People keep alot of strange but private stuff as well as important documents in safe deposit boxes, letters from an ex-lover, to the deeds to your house.
3) Your annual wealth tax return expects you to list your wealth. That includes gold bars, and cash in your wallet.
4) You can easily buy and sell with a gold dealer like Degussa. There are plenty near Geneva train station. Some dealers display prices in their windows. Mostly they have a bid and ask price but donít take any commission. If you buy 1 kilo bars (around chf 40k) the spread should be 1% to 3%, and often this is quoted in advance on their webpage, e.g. https://www.degussa-goldhandel.ch/en/services/prices or https://www.suissegold.ch/en/categor...ubs-gold-bars/

The spread on coins and smaller bars is higher. You can buy boxes of 1000 1 gram bars in Degussa at a few thousand CHF more than the 1 kilo bar. Small bars would be useful if the global trust in money fails (e.g. war, disaster, financial collapse)

Big banks like UBS also quote gold buy and sell prices for coins and bars, and will deal over the counter in the main branch. You can find it on Google.
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  #1158  
Old 16.05.2019, 19:44
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Re: Gold Buying

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Lotus Notes 1.0 was released in 1989, but its email system was not based on SMTP as we know and use today but was propitiatory. SMTP and support was added to Lotus Notes in version 5.0 published 1999. Only then could Lotus user receive and send e-mail from and to the World Wide Web. Nevertheless SMTP was first published 1981 (RFC 788) and its roots go all the way back to the early 1970ies. Microsoft also added SMTP support to its Exchange Server in version 5.0. But that was already in 1997. Before that and even some time after there was one name which rulled the market of internet e-mail clients: Eudora, developed by Steve Dorner back in 1988, even before Lotus Notes saw the light of the dawn.
You are right, electronic mail existed prior to Lotus Notes, which was an internal mailing system, like Blackberry was with the messaging. Effectively internal to those with the same software (or Lotus Notes machine). However Lotus Notes was the first commercial email system in 1989, and in 1999 free Hotmail was out.
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Old 16.05.2019, 21:16
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Re: Gold Buying

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1) Degussa. There is also a vault company I visited once not far from the station. You can google ďGeneva safety deposit boxesĒ
2) You donít need to tell the safety deposit company what is in your box. They donít care if it is your girlfriendís knickers, or a valuable artefact. People keep alot of strange but private stuff as well as important documents in safe deposit boxes, letters from an ex-lover, to the deeds to your house.
3) Your annual wealth tax return expects you to list your wealth. That includes gold bars, and cash in your wallet.
4) You can easily buy and sell with a gold dealer like Degussa. There are plenty near Geneva train station. Some dealers display prices in their windows. Mostly they have a bid and ask price but donít take any commission. If you buy 1 kilo bars (around chf 40k) the spread should be 1% to 3%, and often this is quoted in advance on their webpage, e.g. https://www.degussa-goldhandel.ch/en/services/prices or https://www.suissegold.ch/en/categor...ubs-gold-bars/

The spread on coins and smaller bars is higher. You can buy boxes of 1000 1 gram bars in Degussa at a few thousand CHF more than the 1 kilo bar. Small bars would be useful if the global trust in money fails (e.g. war, disaster, financial collapse)

Big banks like UBS also quote gold buy and sell prices for coins and bars, and will deal over the counter in the main branch. You can find it on Google.
Banks will also rent you a safe deposit box where you can keep your valuables.

Usually you get better deals from the Kantonal banks, I found buying and selling gold bars over the counter was very easy.
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  #1160  
Old 17.05.2019, 10:10
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Re: Gold Buying

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gold isn't an investment, it's an insurance policy.
Insuring at 1% premium makes sense if you think chances of happening are 1/100.

Do you think there is a 1% chance of needing gold as a substitute for money, because the "system is down"?
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