Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 30.05.2008, 10:02
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 140
Groaned at 16 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 38 Times in 19 Posts
private_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

If one wants to have access to the pension money before they retire, I often recommend them to transfer their UK pension to a QROP (not neccessarily a Swiss one) before leaving the UK, wait for five years, transfer it to a more flexible scheme, take the money and run. This strategy is particularly suitable for non doms (i.e. foreigners int eh UK) in the UK.

If you want to go back to the UK after living abroad, it is not worth transferring it into a QROP. If you are UK domiciled and you pass away before age 75, assets in a UK pension plan will not subject to inheritance tax whereas a QROP (or other non UK pension) might very well be subject to UK inheritance tax ( as IHT applies to the worldwide estate of UK domiciliaries even if they don't live in the UK when they pass away).

Moreover if you are close to retirement and want to purchase an annuity, the Gauaranteed Annuity rates (GAR) are much higher in the UK than many other countries.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank private_banker for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 30.05.2008, 11:16
Papa Goose's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ägeri
Posts: 3,699
Groaned at 192 Times in 161 Posts
Thanked 4,245 Times in 1,798 Posts
Papa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

My wife is working in CH now, I'm in France but hoping to complete the move to CH next month, and we left Blighty 20 months ago.

We have no plans to return to the UK, and have no real idea of ulimate resting place for retirement but CH or US seem most likely. I have no knowledge of pension reg's whatsoever, I like the simplicity of everything in one place, and accept that this has consequences, but I don't fancy getting torn a financial 'new one' in retirement.

I know this is limited info' but would moving her inactive PP into the J&J CH scheme be beneficial. I also have innactive an inactive UK PP fund, but will have no employment in CH initially, so what are my general options.

Beers would seem a reasonable fee for help....any excuse!!
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 30.05.2008, 12:43
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: montreux
Posts: 17
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
phillip has no particular reputation at present
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

Hi, as your wifer at leasr has the choice of trasnferring, thanks to her employer, its worth considering the circumstances under which it is worthwhile:

Pros: firstly you can take cash from a Swiss 2nd pillar scheme to help you with property purchase. Secondly, if you leave Switzerland, you can take the cash with you.

Cons. Swiss coinditioons arent all perfect: for starters the investment choices are woefully poor in all but the most forward thinking foundations. (add an extra couple of % p.a. into a pension calculator and see what a difference it makes, over time ! ) Secondly, if you retire in CH then you have to (at least partially) buy an annuity.

Conclusions? If the pros apply to you then great. If not and if you dont like the UK scheme AND IF you have enough funds in there, transfer to an independent QROPS.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank phillip for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 30.05.2008, 15:28
Papa Goose's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ägeri
Posts: 3,699
Groaned at 192 Times in 161 Posts
Thanked 4,245 Times in 1,798 Posts
Papa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond reputePapa Goose has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

I think I'm getting it, for madam I think the pro's do outway the con's, fund choice may be limited, what are the chances that choice may improve?
For moi, am I stuck with the UK PP, or is there a CH vehicle available for transfer.
Thanks for this and any other advice that people may think relevant. The info' you folks impart is so helpful to newbie's to CH, it makes such a difference having this as a port of call.

Graham
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 17.06.2008, 09:05
mackeja's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: L'Isle, VD
Posts: 59
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts
mackeja has earned some respectmackeja has earned some respect
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

So good news.
I have found a QROPS listed fund that will do the transfer from my UK based fund to its Vested Benefits Foundation (Fondation de Libre Passage, Freizügigkeits-Stiftung). They understand the ambiguity in the different rules concerning buy-back and transfer. I am in the process of making the transfer having completed the application form and provided them with the UK pension fund transfer forms.
I found them through a broker I have been using for mortgage preparation. He did the research, found them, met with them and then presented me their portfolio. If you think about doing this, I would like to suggest that you use this guy as it doesn't cost you anything and rewards him for the good work he has done in finding a high quality, high performing fund that solves this whole problem. (I will probably leave the money in here if I don't withdraw it to buy a home, as the return is much much better than your typical 2nd Pillar.) He also speaks English. It will probably also avoid any lengthy discussions with the fund if you happen to connect with someone that doesn't get it.

So the fund is Pictet Vested Benefits Foundation. You can confirm they are listed on QROPs list, near the top of page 19.
http://www.pictet.com/en/home/privat...2e_pilier.html
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/PENSIONSCHEMES/qrops.pdf

Joel Theodoloz is the broker that found it for me. joel.theodoloz@xpertis.ch tel: +41 21 319 6000.

Hope this helps. Happy transferring.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mackeja for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 17.06.2008, 09:15
dannyt986's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Wollerau, Schwyz
Posts: 1,820
Groaned at 26 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 717 Times in 479 Posts
dannyt986 has a reputation beyond reputedannyt986 has a reputation beyond reputedannyt986 has a reputation beyond reputedannyt986 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

Really useful post mackeja, Thanks.

A couple of questions:
- will they treat the transfer as non-tax deductable but using up pensions allowance
- or just like any other additional voluntary contribution (ie double dip UK/CH on the tax)
- are they also comfortable with the mechanisms transfers out back to the UK eventually

A couple of points, Im sure you already know:
- you will probably find it more efficient to chose the indirect amortization method of funding the home purchase
- I guess your broker gets his commission from Pictet as theres no free lunches.. did you consider getting the commission rebate and paying him his time

Again, well done for tracking this one down.

Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 17.06.2008, 10:27
mackeja's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: L'Isle, VD
Posts: 59
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts
mackeja has earned some respectmackeja has earned some respect
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

I am not sure of the language you are using so let me answer in my own words.
The transfer will be directly from my UK pension fund to this QROPS fund and will not be taxable on either side (UK/CH) and will also not be able to be used as a tax deduction in CH (20% buy back deduction).
I have absolutely no intention of returning to the UK so I have not asked about the transfer back.
I think that answers your first set of questions.

If I use it to buy a house then I can cash it out and pay about 10% tax (for me, this changes per person per region). Or I can use it as a guarantee against a mortgage to buy a home. I still haven't done a deep analysis of the pros and cons (higher repayment, higher interest value, greater tax deduction, better return on the fund vs property in the long term, etc etc) on this choice for me yet but will once the money is in the country and I have found something I want to buy.
Does that cover your indirect amortization point? If not please explain further, I am interested.

Yes the broker is paid by Pictet but you remind me that I haven't got this in writing. I will do that and let you know if it is not the case. Or if you are interested give me a call and confirm.
What would be the benefit of commission rebate and paying for his time? The assumption is that the latter is less than the former, right? Have you done this sort of thing before?

Good questions. Keep them coming because I admit that I have not thought of all the angles. That's what you guys are for, right!? Cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 17.06.2008, 12:37
dannyt986's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Wollerau, Schwyz
Posts: 1,820
Groaned at 26 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 717 Times in 479 Posts
dannyt986 has a reputation beyond reputedannyt986 has a reputation beyond reputedannyt986 has a reputation beyond reputedannyt986 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

Indirect amortization: Yes you understood correctly. There are threads elsewhere on this decision, but it is normally better.

Commission: Depending on the size of the transfer, the commission could easily be a couple of % of the value. This may be much higher than the hours spent by the broker at an hourly rate.

Happy to be of service too.
Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 30.06.2008, 16:06
mackeja's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: L'Isle, VD
Posts: 59
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts
mackeja has earned some respectmackeja has earned some respect
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

The name and contact details of the broker is wrong in my post above. It should be Joel Theodoloz is the broker that found it for me. joel.theodoloz@xpertis.ch tel: +41 22 319 6000. He also confirmed that commission is paid by the bank and nothing is removed from my account.

I am off to Australia for 5 weeks holiday tomorrow...hopefully when I get back I will be able to send you all an update of the successful transfer. Cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09.07.2008, 15:15
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: London
Posts: 3
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
LovingLife has no particular reputation at present
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

It should be pretty easy to transfer your pension if you are moving depending on your contract. Have you spoken with someone there? Here are some sites that give general info on transfering pensions
http://uk.moneto.eu/pensions/non-sta...tiring-abroad/
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/mortgag...in_page_id=505
But you should look at your terms to make sure it is available for your pension.
Hope this helps
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 30.07.2008, 14:42
kev330520's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 43
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
kev330520 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

I am an offshore financial adviser here in Zurich and QROPS schemes are something I come across frequently. Any QROPS pensions scheme can only be moved to an approved pension scheme outside the UK once it is 'paid up'.

The mechanics can be fairly complex as the balance of the pension fund is put into a trust like scheme and into a bond meaning that it will grow tax free.

This must be kept for a period of time and depending on the pension owners juristriction at the time the pension is realised will depend on whether the benefits can be taken tax free.

If anyone wants a bit more detail feel free to PM me...

Kevin
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 30.07.2008, 14:52
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 140
Groaned at 16 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 38 Times in 19 Posts
private_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
The mechanics can be fairly complex as the balance of the pension fund is put into a trust like scheme and into a bond meaning that it will grow tax free.
Do you mean an "offshore investment bond"? Why is it neccessary once you have moved out of the UK?
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 30.07.2008, 15:05
kev330520's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 43
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
kev330520 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

The options are that you can, if your company allow you to, transfer the UK pension to your new swiss company and the pension will then be goverened by the laws of your new company. This is not a bad thing and I do not believe the laws here in Switzerland differ too much from those in the UK, although anyone should check with the new employer first.

We have a QROPS option of using an offshore investment bond which, for the right client and in the right circumstances can be more flexible, allowing the pension holder to reaise the funds sooner if needed.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 30.07.2008, 17:30
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 140
Groaned at 16 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 38 Times in 19 Posts
private_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

I still don't see the need to have an offshore bond underneath the pension wrapper.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 06.08.2008, 15:22
kev330520's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 43
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
kev330520 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

The QROPS scheme I deal with involves moving the UK frozen pension into an offshore portfolio bond freeing up the funds as an asset for the client. This way it is tax efficient and the funds can be used as the holder wants at realisation of the fund.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 06.08.2008, 15:58
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 140
Groaned at 16 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 38 Times in 19 Posts
private_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

Do you move the funds into an offshore bond when the client is still resident in the UK? I would have though that the transfer will trigger a chargeable event (and in case of a QROP, an unauthorised payments charge as well).

Kev, I am not trying to prove you wrong. I think it is an interesting mechanism but I just want to be absolutely clear that this works.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 06.08.2008, 16:03
kev330520's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 43
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
kev330520 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

No, the client cannot be a resident in the UK, they must have already moved. There must be an intention not to move back to the UK aswell. It is good if this is the case as you can put all frozen pensions into the one place.

It can seem complicated but essentially it is simple, if you wish to discuss it further let me know.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 06.08.2008, 16:22
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 140
Groaned at 16 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 38 Times in 19 Posts
private_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around hereprivate_banker has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

OK, but only after a continuos 5 year period of non residence in the UK.

Once the client has become a non resident and transfer a qrop (which might trigger a tax liability in the country of their residence), why would an offshore bond come in handy? Can they not just take the money and run?
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 06.08.2008, 16:43
kev330520's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 43
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
kev330520 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

The QROP can be activated as soon as someone is non resident in the UK. You are correct, there is a 5 year qualifying period and yes technically, the client can take the money and run after 5 years and one day, but they could possibly be liable for tax depending on the regualtions in the country they live in.

By putting it in a portfolio bond it makes the money in the bond an asset which even after realisation, if the holder dies, the balance of the fund will go to the estate. It makes it flexible.

The QROP sheme I look at is not viable for everyone, to be honest there must be a sizable amount in the pension fund, or cumulitive funds, to make it worth while as if the frozen fund is to small, it may be swallowed up by fund charges.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07.08.2008, 10:14
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: montreux
Posts: 17
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
phillip has no particular reputation at present
Re: Pension - Moving my UK pension to Switzerland

Good morning,

Im not sure I get it, though thats probably just because of differences in terminology, so I'd like to add what i know.

1. A transfer to a QROPS can be made by a UK resident prior to his departure.

2. This doesnt change the crtiteria such that the UK rules fall away, and the rules of the territotoy of the scheme take precedence ( ie he still has to be over 50 and with 5 years non-UK residence).

3. The QROPS itself is a investment vehicle which is presumably sited in a financial centre which does not charge gains or income. It will already have significant establishment and annual charges. So what possible value could there be in investing into an expensive insurance policy ? why not just open a custody account and buy the OEICS etc directly ?

4. Only the QROPS can dictate the terms of payments to a member; the underlying investment is irrelevant.

5. QROPS cashing out schemes will be considered to be abusive. Singapore has already been struck off the HMRC list of approved territories, and the word is they are gunning for Guernsey and Hong Kong.

Comments invited of course :-)
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Expats in Zurich...full of Swissies? Lob Other/general 36 10.01.2008 09:40
Moving from Bern to the UK maytree Housing in general 15 29.04.2007 20:29
Moving to Switzerland from Los Angeles Jessica Introductions 17 17.04.2007 07:34
Question about leaving Switzerland and moving back to the UK nômad Finance/banking/taxation 2 11.04.2007 15:34
Moving dusty Uk pension to Schwiez Polorise Finance/banking/taxation 2 27.03.2007 19:48


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0