Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Finance/banking/taxation  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05.01.2010, 15:58
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brazil
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
fbrito has no particular reputation at present
Is Studying at the ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Hello,

I come from Brazil and I really would like to study (and live) somewhere else, because there are a lot of problems here, like violence, political problems, etc.

My preference was a country with English as main language, but universities in UK, Canada, Australia, Scotland and most countries have high tuition costs. The University that I was looking in Canada costs 18.000 CAD/year.

Last year I made an one year exchange student program (high school) in Germany, and now that I can speak German (more or less), new doors have been opened.

Doing some researches on Internet I've found some University ranks on Europe (like this one) and ETH seemed to be the best place in a Germany spoken country to study.

However, living costs are relatively high. Doing some math, I've came to this:
- Tuition: 644 CHF/semester
- Study Materials: 150 CHF/month
- Accommodation: 600 CHF/month (for a shared room. is that enough?)
- Food: 450 CHF/month (15 CHF/day. I do not like cooking, I think :P)
- Transport: 100 CHF/month
- Health Insurance: 200 CHF/month
- Others (washing clothes, handy, etc): 200 CHF/month

-- Total: 1.800 CHF/month

Is that a reasonable value?

It happens that in Germany and in Austria, the living costs are lower than in Switzerland. In another researches, I found out that I could survive there with something between 600~900 EUR/month. Ok, 900 EUR is 1.336 CHF, but that difference of 500 CHF every month x 3 years is a lot of money for my family.

My question is: it is worth to pay more to study in Switzerland? Do you think that the quality of the universities and the quality of life are that superior to Austria (Wien), for example?

And what is the probability of getting a job during the vacations to help me with the costs?

Thank you very much.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05.01.2010, 16:02
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brazil
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
fbrito has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Ah, I forgot to say what I want to study!
Computer Science (Informatik).


PS: Where is the "Edit Post" button? Am I blind or there is not a button to edit my own posts?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05.01.2010, 16:07
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

You haven't told us what your field of study is. The ETH is definitely one of the top Unis worldwide, it's considered the 2nd best technical University in the world, right after the MIT. So I guess depending on what you want to study it isn't a bad idea. 1800.-/M is reasonable, but you might want to take up cooking. (meals at the Mensa are cheap though, 6.-) Study material at 150.-/M is a bit steep, the rest very realistic. If you aren't 25 yet you'll pay much less for health insurance, around 120.-/M. Depending on how good you are you can also easily earn some money by offering private tuition for other students at 25+/h, about what you can expect doing some random student jobs too. Vienna and Zürich are quite comparable city-wise, but ETH is a good choice anyways. If I were you and you have the chance, get a ticket now that they're so cheap and come here for a visit to see if you like it. Join couchsurfing if you can't afford a hotel or youth hostel.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05.01.2010, 16:28
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brazil
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
fbrito has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Quote:
View Post
You haven't told us what your field of study is. The ETH is definitely one of the top Unis worldwide, it's considered the 2nd best technical University in the world, right after the MIT. So I guess depending on what you want to study it isn't a bad idea. 1800.-/M is reasonable, but you might want to take up cooking. (meals at the Mensa are cheap though, 6.-) Study material at 150.-/M is a bit steep, the rest very realistic. If you aren't 25 yet you'll pay much less for health insurance, around 120.-/M. Depending on how good you are you can also easily earn some money by offering private tuition for other students at 25+/h, about what you can expect doing some random student jobs too. Vienna and Zürich are quite comparable city-wise, but ETH is a good choice anyways. If I were you and you have the chance, get a ticket now that they're so cheap and come here for a visit to see if you like it. Join couchsurfing if you can't afford a hotel or youth hostel.
Thank you for your answer! Good to know how good ETH is.

I want study Informatik (Bachelor).

Maybe I can earn some money doing small free lance jobs. I already have a medium knowledge in web programming and computer stuff. Also good to know that health insurance can be a little bit more cheaper (I am 18).
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05.01.2010, 16:35
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

I have a few friends who study Informatik at the ETH, but I couldn't tell you how good the ETH is in that field. Generally spoken if you really have to watch your budget you can live really, really cheap. You can reduce your room in a flatshare to 450.-/M instead of 600, no cost for transportation (a bicycle is enough in the city, Zürich isn't big) in the summer months, etc etc.. It really depends on how much you want to live. Almost any budget is possible.
The workload is usually quite heavy, so don't expect to work much besides your studies, but working on Saturday or Sunday should still be possible.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 06.01.2010, 00:36
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brazil
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
fbrito has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Thank you very much for you answers!

This forum is really making me want to move to Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06.01.2010, 04:51
ch-expat
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Quote:
View Post
...The ETH is definitely one of the top Unis worldwide, it's considered the 2nd best technical University in the world, right after the MIT...
simon_ch:
The ETH is pretty good but 2nd in the world? Where do you get that information from?
All the worldwide rankings puts it at #10-30.
There is MIT but also Stanford, Caltech, Princeton and several others that are ranked higher than ETH in the US. Oxford and Cambridge are also constantly ranked above ETH in Europe.

http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009SCI.jsp
http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009ENG.jsp
http://www.webometrics.info/top6000.asp
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 06.01.2010, 12:31
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

ch-expat: It's not the 2nd best University in the world, but the 2nd best technical University focusing on scientific output and Nobel price winners in specific fields.
The ETH is leading in several scientific fields. This of course does not say anything about the level of teaching, which probably varies a lot between the subjects!
That's what Wiki sais about it:
Quote:
ETH Zurich has produced and attracted many famous scientists in its short history, including Albert Einstein. More than twenty Nobel laureates have either studied at ETH or were awarded the Nobel Prize for their work achieved at ETH. Other alumni include scientists who were distinguished with the highest honours in their respective fields, amongst them Pritzker Prize and Turing Award winners. Academic achievements aside, ETH has been Alma Mater to many Olympic Medalists and world champions.
Quote:
ETH is regularly ranked among the top universities in the world. Typically, popular rankings placed ETH as the best university in Switzerland and on the main European continent, among the top 5 European universities, and among the best 25 of the world (e.g., in 2008, rank 24 in both the Times and Shanghai ranking, see Ranking Overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETH
It really depends what the rankings are measuring, it's certainly a top University, but it's considered the 2nd best techn. University for research.
All that however has little bearings for a Undergraduate student going to study Computer science, so it's probably irrelevant for him anyway.
I know however, that ETH has very advanced interdisciplinary projects in robotics and IT..
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 06.01.2010, 18:13
lssilva
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Hi FBrito,

Do you speak very good German? because for Bachelor the courses are only in German. Also ETH will impose a number of extra rules for you since you didn't do your Education in Switzerland.

I am also from Brazil and I did my Msc in Computer Science there! I have also studied in the UK and NL! If you can afford you should go to UK or US!

The top universities in UK don't have as much money as ETH but in my opinion they are better!

Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06.01.2010, 18:26
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brazil
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
fbrito has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Quote:
View Post
Hi FBrito,

Do you speak very good German? because for Bachelor the courses are only in German. Also ETH will impose a number of extra rules for you since you didn't do your Education in Switzerland.

I am also from Brazil and I did my Msc in Computer Science there! I have also studied in the UK and NL! If you can afford you should go to UK or US!

The top universities in UK don't have as much money as ETH but in my opinion they are better!

Good luck!
I can speak and understand almost everything, but I need to improve my writing and study more grammar. If my plans of moving to Zurich works I think I will make a intensive German course before going to the University.

Concerning the documents, I am aware that I have to do what they call a "Reduced entrance examination". This website shows that I need my "High School Conclusion Certificate" (Diploma de Ensino Médio, in portuguese) and a document proofing that I am currently in a University in my country studying something in the same area of the course that I want to study there.

Without a really big scholarship, I really can't afford universities in UK or US.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07.01.2010, 10:49
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 126
Groaned at 60 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 40 Times in 24 Posts
TapiroLee is considered unworthyTapiroLee is considered unworthyTapiroLee is considered unworthyTapiroLee is considered unworthy
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Hi FBrito,

I am currently doing a Master in Computer Science at ETH Zürich majoring in Computational Science (applied mathematics). On 2005 when they still didn't offer a Master program I did a graduate certificate in Software Engineering "Nachdiplomkurs".

I have attended something above ten courses so far and this is my impression, of course not all programs and specialties are the same but overall. ETH hires nearly the best *research* staff around the globe. ETH is the ultimate place to a PhD or research, this is where they really make the though! and the conditions for this are great. You collaborate with elite researchers, learn a lot and make the highest paid PhD in the world.

Teaching however, as for Bachelor and Master is concerned is not that great, surely it always depends on the specific professor e.g. I really enjoyed Bertrand Meyer's lectures but I think he is the exception. For most of the courses you are left with lacking explanations and you are dumped with zillion formulas to work out by yourself and exercises that you need already a PhD to resolve, assistants will usually dodge you if you come with questions because they are very busy with their PhD and have no time. In conclusion, if you are the heavily autodidactic learner then yes sure go for it, you will study a lot by yourself, BUT if you heavily rely on good lectures to learn then you are going to struggle. I think this the result of the low tuition fees ... you always get what you pay for. Sure ETH is among the top 15-20 in Computer Science in the world and #1 in Europe not counting the elite UK Universities but you need to be aware of the cons too.

I have followed many of the free podcast lectures offered by MIT and Standford that you can download for free from iTunes U MIT e.g. Linear Algebra from Prof. Gilbert Strang and that is really WOW WOW !! hands down! when he finishes explaining then you only need to open the books to reinforce what you learned and not to work out everything by yourself. Of course, you DO pay such education but if you really want to learn and be taught very well then it is worth every penny ... e.g. getting a loan you are going to pay it back super quickly with such education.

Ok regarding the financial part Zürich is very expensive and you will be in a very tough budget ... being a Brazilian I seriously doubt you are going to be happily staying home all the time. Stepping out from home is very expensive ... I have to work and study at the same time for this reason and my savings are high but if I stopped working I would lose my savings in a snap. I see many of the Master students specially those coming from more poor countries avoiding many social activities for that reason ... of course many of the foreign students come from relatively rich families in their respective countries but still ...

ETH has relatively cheap tuition fees but it is very hard to study because of the very high costs of living. The teaching is not that great, it is not where they excel but research is. This is my personal opinion.

Other Universities will have higher tuition fees but the teaching is great and the cost of living is bearable e.g. Standford, MIT etc I would also recommend UCL in UK. The cons here is that to get admitted you will have to be really good and pay the high tuitions or get a loan .. but considering your age this is what I would wholeheartedly recommend you to do ... I wish I could do it myself.

HTH,
Best regards,
TapiroLee
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TapiroLee for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 07.01.2010, 10:58
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Thanks for the excellent post TapiroLee, that's what I suspected, without knowing the details. It's excellent for research, but the level of teaching very much depends on the subject of your studies.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07.01.2010, 11:11
sygirl101's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 500
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 376 Times in 162 Posts
sygirl101 has a reputation beyond reputesygirl101 has a reputation beyond reputesygirl101 has a reputation beyond reputesygirl101 has a reputation beyond reputesygirl101 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

In terms of US schools, most of them have need based scholarships, so they see how much you can afford and they help cover the rest. This is how students go to top-tier schools in the US, if they have the skills and brains for it.

Is ETH a great school? Yes. Are all the profs amazing? No. Does that mean you shouldn't go there? You should go where you want to.

But my US school (one of the ones listed in these posts) is a great school, but a lot of professors aren't that great either.

The actual structure of European and US schools differ in terms of how classes are taught and how many classes you take. Try and find which one you like better. Look at how the degrees and what the requirements are.

If you are also doing a bachelor's degree, US schools really focus becoming one with the school in spirit and all that. School is your life, not just academically.

Quote:
View Post
I have followed many of the free podcast lectures offered by MIT and Standford that you can download for free from iTunes U MIT e.g. Linear Algebra from Prof. Gilbert Strang and that is really WOW WOW !! hands down! when he finishes explaining then you only need to open the books to reinforce what you learned and not to work out everything by yourself. Of course, you DO pay such education but if you really want to learn and be taught very well then it is worth every penny ... e.g. getting a loan you are going to pay it back super quickly with such education.
Gilbert Strang, now retired (aw...), is an amazing professor, but he is really an exception. He is brilliant and can explain anything. However, not all MIT professors are so clear. Just saying. Prof. Sadoway is pretty awesome too, but has a weird reputation (you can find all these lectures on ocw.mit.edu).
__________________
Floccinaucinihilipilification: act of describing something as useless.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07.01.2010, 11:11
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Have you looked into Carnegie Mellon in the US? Tuition is high, and I don't know what the financial aid options are but Pittsburgh is really inexpensive to live in, smallish and really a nice city. You'll be working your butt off anyway so why live somewhere exciting?

I am prejudiced though, since I was born in Pittburgh and one of my master's comes from CMU.. in a different field.

For an undergraduate degree, you really do have to pay attention to the quality of teaching and accessibility of professors. I don't know how CMU is for undergraduate, but it has a good reputation in several fields.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 07.01.2010, 15:49
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 126
Groaned at 60 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 40 Times in 24 Posts
TapiroLee is considered unworthyTapiroLee is considered unworthyTapiroLee is considered unworthyTapiroLee is considered unworthy
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Hi FBrito,

Another aspect that now crosses my mind it is something you don't even think about when applying for a school in a foreign country but at least for me it affects the learning experience too.

Ask yourself what kind of students you would like to be surrounded with if you are in a foreign country, in a school where the lectures are far from great and the assistants will dodge you when you come with questions. Here in ETH Zürich, at least the Swiss students I know will also dodge you .. , if you ask to make a e.g. "study circle" with any of them - something perfectly natural that I was really very used to in my home country - most likely they will look at you like if you were a serial killer and run away.

I believe this aspect will be much better if you were say e.g. in an University in US ... Americans are far more open, more even than in UK (I studied in UK too). Continuous interaction and discussion improves learning greatly ... in my experience I have seen this kind of open engagement while studying only with Americans and Russians no clichés but this is my personal experience. The Swiss will in general never admit a mistake nor let you see any weakness ... I guess this is why they would prefer to get a flat 4.0 rather than let themselves exchange with other students or ask for help.

In graduate studies it is much better though as there are more foreign students, I do this "study circle" with students coming from other countries but no Swiss so far ...

HTH,
Best regards,
TapiroLee
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07.01.2010, 16:05
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 11,615
Groaned at 290 Times in 247 Posts
Thanked 21,709 Times in 7,911 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

When you choose your university, I would not only look at costs of living or some vague global rankings... the question is what is right for you.

You can expect the ETH to be "mass processing" in the lower years. The same will be true for larger research universities in Germany, say the RWTH. If you think you are able to study very independently in a competitive environment, you can earn yourself a very respected degree for a relatively low cost.

If you are not really sure, you could have a look at many "applied Universities" called Fachhochschule. The classes are typically much smaller and the amount of support you can get is much larger. You are more "guided" through your curriculum, choose less by yourself, but therefore need less self motivation. You will typically not end up in research, but applied computer science (lets say business information systems) instead.

So it really depends on what style of studying suits you, what you are interested in and where you want to end up in some years.

Comparing Germany to Switzerland: I am German and live here, so I do know the price levels. You can live in Germany on significantly less money than in Zurich. I can imagine this is important for your family as my parents would have had an issue with the costs here as well
The difference is that wages are really high here. So if you plan to work part time, your "balance sheet" looks suddenly very differently: Low level work here: Easily 25 CHF an hour. Similar job in Germany: Probably less than 10 EUR.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07.01.2010, 16:36
HollidayG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kanton Zürich
Posts: 3,038
Groaned at 50 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 1,179 Times in 737 Posts
HollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputation
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

One question to ask is: Where do you want to live long-term?


Another question: Do you want to pursue a doctorate degree?

If you want a doctorate degree, I think ETH
looks great on your CV.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07.01.2010, 17:56
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
exptime has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Hi,

Quote:
View Post
I think this the result of the low tuition fees ... you always get what you pay for. Sure ETH is among the top 15-20 in Computer Science in the world and #1 in Europe not counting the elite UK Universities but you need to be aware of the cons too.
This is not correct. It is not the result of the low tuition fees (the amount of time a professor at ETH, or anywhere else, invests in teaching is not proportional to the tuition fees... it is just his own choice). Every top university has a high number of people who are focusing on top research and are lacking teaching skills. This is just about the hiring priorities of the universities. And it applies to every such university. You would find the same situation everywhere at a top university, you just pay more for it. (The high tuition fees just compensate what ETH gets from the Swiss state, they are not used to motivate professors ...)

The example you mention at MIT (Gilbert Strang) is AFAIK well known as one of the most excellent math professors around with respect to teaching, so that's a quite unfair comparison...

Just my two cents...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07.01.2010, 19:04
ch-expat
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

You could consider the ETH in Lausanne also. I feel that I got a good education there. I worked with Yale, Stanford, or MIT scientists at CERN, Brookhaven national lab, and Fermi lab and I always felt that I fit comfortably with that crowd.
I agree with what has been said above. make sure that you join a school that offers a good undergrad program. Too often those classes are taught by not very motivated or articulate Ph.D students and not the professors.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07.01.2010, 19:11
ch-expat
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is Studying on ETH Worth It? (Living Costs)

Quote:
Have you looked into Carnegie Mellon in the US? Tuition is high, and I don't know what the financial aid options are but Pittsburgh is really inexpensive to live in, smallish and really a nice city. You'll be working your butt off anyway so why live somewhere exciting?

I am prejudiced though, since I was born in Pittburgh and one of my master's comes from CMU.. in a different field.

For an undergraduate degree, you really do have to pay attention to the quality of teaching and accessibility of professors. I don't know how CMU is for undergraduate, but it has a good reputation in several fields.
I second that. Very good school.
Consider also Georgia Tech, University of Washington, University of Michigan, University of Wisconsin. All very good schools.
Forget the UC system. It is great but currently underfunded and there is almost no way you can get in right now. A pity.
I would pick UCSB any day. Fabulous location and very good school.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Any opinions about living near ETH Honngeberg? (On Bus 69 line) lunamakes3 Housing in general 1 08.07.2009 14:48
Studying in Lausanne, living in Geneva. Is it possible? JaredRSydney Housing in general 4 01.06.2009 10:40
Living costs in Zug neil15 Finance/banking/taxation 4 27.05.2009 21:41
Living Costs (and other questions) Graeme Daily life 3 21.05.2008 16:30


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0