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Old 31.03.2010, 13:54
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Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

Hi all,

Do I (permit B holder, taxation at source, EU citizen) need to declare foreign real estate?

I own a house in Belgium (which I rent out now), and pay a mortgage for it (at a Belgian bank). In Belgium, I used to be able to deduct tax for the mortgage, but that is not feasible any more since I don't have any income in Belgium any more. Would I be able to somehow deduct the mortgage in Switzerland?

Thanks.
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Old 31.03.2010, 15:36
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Hi all,

Do I (permit B holder, taxation at source, EU citizen) need to declare foreign real estate?

I own a house in Belgium (which I rent out now), and pay a mortgage for it (at a Belgian bank). In Belgium, I used to be able to deduct tax for the mortgage, but that is not feasible any more since I don't have any income in Belgium any more. Would I be able to somehow deduct the mortgage in Switzerland?

Thanks.
Some years ago this was an issue in Britain. The Inland Revenue (as it then was) followed the rule of Ockenden v Mackey, to the effect that rent received on foreign property (except property in the Irish Republic) was subject to tax without any deduction for mortgage interest. Property in the UK or Ireland was taxed net of interest.

I wrote an article in 1995 contesting the legality of this as an impediment to freedom of movement in the EU/EEA (and now Switzerland). The EEC (as it then was) took my case and the 1996 Finance Act changed British tax law.

That has implications for all EU/EEA/Swiss countries. Depending on how you propose to use the mortgage and interest deduction (for wealth tax, for offsetting foreign income) it may help you. (I understand from other posts in this forum that Swiss wealth tax is not imposed on foreign immovables but that such property (presumably net of mortgage debt?) is considered in fixing your tax bracket.)

FWIW I was a doctorant at the Université catholique de Louvain at the time.
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Old 31.03.2010, 16:31
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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I own a house in Belgium (which I rent out now), and pay a mortgage for it (at a Belgian bank). In Belgium, I used to be able to deduct tax for the mortgage, but that is not feasible any more since I don't have any income in Belgium any more. Would I be able to somehow deduct the mortgage in Switzerland?
Real estate income per se is not subject to taxation, be it communal, cantonal or federal.

Rental yield is added to your Swiss income and used to determine your tax bracket; the corresponding tax rate will only be applied to your Swiss-earned income. In case deductible fees (property management, insurance etc) exceed rental income, the negative balance will then have different implications depending on where you live (a few cantons treat is as tax rebate, the majority -and the Confederation- only use it to adapt the taxation rate).

Wealth tax is imposed on foreign property - more precisely the value of foreign property will be taken into account to establish your wealth tax bracket, however the corresponding rate will only be applied to your Swiss-domiciled wealth, as presumably your house is already taxed in Belgium.

Mortgage interests are deductible (however only to a maximum amount equal to gross property yield + 50k CHF as far as federal taxation is concerned; cantonal / communal treatment varies but it's in the same ballpark)
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Last edited by Shorrick Mk2; 31.03.2010 at 17:11.
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Old 31.03.2010, 18:48
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

Thanks for the very helpful anwers!


The property is indeed already taxed in Belgium, but only for a small fixed amount (indepedently from the fact that I rent it out or not). In Belgium, when a private person only owns one house (like me), and it is rented out to a private person, the rental yield is not regarded as an income. If I understand correctly, that would not be the case when I declare my house in Switzerland.


Bottomline: Switzerland will look at my world-wide income (including foreign rental yield) to compute the taxation, and I can deduct my world-wide costs ("normal" work-related deductions + foreign mortgage payments). Correct?

Hence, since the rental yield is not sufficient to cover the morgage payments + property maintenance costs (I'm short about 2000 EUR per year), I would actually benefit from declaring my property (around 2000 EUR * 1.43 exchange rate * 18% tax rate ~= 500 CHF)?

If it is only the mortgage interests that are deductable (instead of the full mortgage), then I would lose. Moreover, since it would affect my wealth tax negatively (property value ~200k EUR) and complexify the declaration too much, I might better "forget" to declare it...
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Old 31.03.2010, 19:08
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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Thanks for the very helpful anwers!


The property is indeed already taxed in Belgium, but only for a small fixed amount (indepedently from the fact that I rent it out or not). In Belgium, when a private person only owns one house (like me), and it is rented out to a private person, the rental yield is not regarded as an income. If I understand correctly, that would not be the case when I declare my house in Switzerland.


Bottomline: Switzerland will look at my world-wide income (including foreign rental yield) to compute the taxation, and I can deduct my world-wide costs ("normal" work-related deductions + foreign mortgage payments). Correct?

Hence, since the rental yield is not sufficient to cover the morgage payments + property maintenance costs (I'm short about 2000 EUR per year), I would actually benefit from declaring my property (around 2000 EUR * 1.43 exchange rate * 18% tax rate ~= 500 CHF)?

If it is only the mortgage interests that are deductable (instead of the full mortgage), then I would lose. Moreover, since it would affect my wealth tax negatively (property value ~200k EUR) and complexify the declaration too much, I might better "forget" to declare it...
Mortgage payments <> Mortgage interest. The mortgage payment is comprised of debt reimbursement + interest. Debt reimbursement is never deductible, only interest. However, considering what maturity you have on your loan, it's quite likely that the bulk of the mortgage payment is actually interests.
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Old 31.03.2010, 19:13
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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Thanks for the very helpful anwers!


The property is indeed already taxed in Belgium, but only for a small fixed amount (indepedently from the fact that I rent it out or not). In Belgium, when a private person only owns one house (like me), and it is rented out to a private person, the rental yield is not regarded as an income. If I understand correctly, that would not be the case when I declare my house in Switzerland.


Bottomline: Switzerland will look at my world-wide income (including foreign rental yield) to compute the taxation, and I can deduct my world-wide costs ("normal" work-related deductions + foreign mortgage payments). Correct?

Hence, since the rental yield is not sufficient to cover the morgage payments + property maintenance costs (I'm short about 2000 EUR per year), I would actually benefit from declaring my property (around 2000 EUR * 1.43 exchange rate * 18% tax rate ~= 500 CHF)?

If it is only the mortgage interests that are deductable (instead of the full mortgage), then I would lose. Moreover, since it would affect my wealth tax negatively (property value ~200k EUR) and complexify the declaration too much, I might better "forget" to declare it...
Have a look at the replies to the thread "Very confused about tax on UK property" next to this one in this section of the Forum.

Switzerland is one of few countries that impose a tax on the owner based on the imputed rental value of real property. Canada used to do that many years ago: there is a lot of economic theory about this, a lot of literature. It is designed to equate the position of renters and owners and perhaps accounts (along with the Lex Koller and lots of other anomalies in Switzerland) of the low (1/3 some say) of home ownership in Switzerland. (Compare the USA, and Britain when it had the now-abolished MIRAS, allowing deduction of mortgage interest for purposes of income tax, a subsidy renters don't get).

Someone with a better knowledge of Swiss tax than I (I pay it, but I can only claim expertise in the tax laws of the UK, Canada and USA) has said that for both income and wealth tax your foreign revenue and assets, or imputed revenue (and maybe imputed assets, thinking of trusts and intermediaries) count to raise your RATE of tax, pushing you into a higher bracket. But do not tax the income or assets directly.
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Old 31.03.2010, 20:41
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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H
Switzerland is one of few countries that impose a tax on the owner based on the imputed rental value of real property. Canada used to do that many years ago: there is a lot of economic theory about this, a lot of literature.
It is designed to equate the position of renters and owners and perhaps accounts (along with the Lex Koller and lots of other anomalies in Switzerland) of the low (1/3 some say) of home ownership in Switzerland. (Compare the USA, and Britain when it had the now-abolished MIRAS, allowing deduction of mortgage interest for purposes of income tax, a subsidy renters don't get).
Not so relevant, as theoretical rental income taxation only happens when you actually use the house as a residence. As for ownership, try the 30% money down deposit and capital gain tax on resale as far more plausible explanations. It is still more interesting to own rather than rent - if you can afford it that is.

Swiss taxation also takes into account the fact that a majority of mortgages are in fact never actually paid off - you merely rent the house from the bank.
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Old 31.03.2010, 22:33
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Not so relevant, as theoretical rental income taxation only happens when you actually use the house as a residence. As for ownership, try the 30% money down deposit and capital gain tax on resale as far more plausible explanations. It is still more interesting to own rather than rent - if you can afford it that is.

Swiss taxation also takes into account the fact that a majority of mortgages are in fact never actually paid off - you merely rent the house from the bank.
Only relevant, perhaps, to economists. I remember it being discussed in my grad courses in the 1960s: Imputed Rent of Owner-Occupied Dwellings Under the Income Tax, by Richard Goode, The Journal of Finance, Vol. 15, No. 4. (Dec., 1960), pp. 504-530.
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Old 31.03.2010, 23:48
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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Real estate income per se is not subject to taxation, be it communal, cantonal or federal.

Rental yield is added to your Swiss income and used to determine your tax bracket; the corresponding tax rate will only be applied to your Swiss-earned income. In case deductible fees (property management, insurance etc) exceed rental income, the negative balance will then have different implications depending on where you live (a few cantons treat is as tax rebate, the majority -and the Confederation- only use it to adapt the taxation rate).
I have a mortage back in sydney and I am paying it back by rental income + my own savings in Sydney. I have never transferred money back to Sydney from Switzerland to pay for my mortage.

I have been told that I do need to file a tax return in Sydney as I have a rental income there and I have to pay tax on it.

Can somebody clarify what happens in this situation ? If I declare my mortage here I will go in the higher tax bracket and also pay tax in Australia on my rental income ? I believe Australia and Switzerland has double taxation agreement ?

If I don't pay my foreign mortage from Switzerland, do I still need to declare it ?

I appreciate some clarification on this matter.
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Old 01.04.2010, 13:29
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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Real estate income per se is not subject to taxation, be it communal, cantonal or federal.

Rental yield is added to your Swiss income and used to determine your tax bracket; the corresponding tax rate will only be applied to your Swiss-earned income. In case deductible fees (property management, insurance etc) exceed rental income, the negative balance will then have different implications depending on where you live (a few cantons treat is as tax rebate, the majority -and the Confederation- only use it to adapt the taxation rate).

Wealth tax is imposed on foreign property - more precisely the value of foreign property will be taken into account to establish your wealth tax bracket, however the corresponding rate will only be applied to your Swiss-domiciled wealth, as presumably your house is already taxed in Belgium.

Mortgage interests are deductible (however only to a maximum amount equal to gross property yield + 50k CHF as far as federal taxation is concerned; cantonal / communal treatment varies but it's in the same ballpark)
Shorrick, thanks for the really helpful post. Just to confirm your last point. Do you mean
a) that mortgage interest on a FOREIGN property would be deductible from the foreign rent? Therefore it would only impact Swiss tax from the point of view that it would change my tax "bracket" and reduce the tax rate that would be payable on Swiss income?
Or alternatively
b) the mortgage interest would actually be deductible from Swiss income?

From a previous post by Andy02 in another thread, under UK tax law the mortgage & interest would be viewed as being attached to the UK property which is the collateral against the loan. Q is does the same law apply in Switzerland or ought I allocate part of the mortgage & interest against my swiss wealth and income based on the repartition process...
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Old 01.04.2010, 13:44
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

Mortgage interest on foreign property will be deductible from the foreign rent.

As to mortgage allocation, the (at least federal) law is very clear - each mortgage remains attached to whatever it finances. You cannot do for instance mortgage pooling on one property to do fiscal optimisation.
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Old 01.04.2010, 13:48
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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I have a mortage back in sydney and I am paying it back by rental income + my own savings in Sydney. I have never transferred money back to Sydney from Switzerland to pay for my mortage.

I have been told that I do need to file a tax return in Sydney as I have a rental income there and I have to pay tax on it.

Can somebody clarify what happens in this situation ? If I declare my mortage here I will go in the higher tax bracket and also pay tax in Australia on my rental income ? I believe Australia and Switzerland has double taxation agreement ?
There's no "ifs" - in principle you "should" declare your mortgage and mortgage income here. You won't be taxed twice - Switzerland will only tax you on your local income (albeit at a marginally higher rate).


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If I don't pay my foreign mortage from Switzerland, do I still need to declare it ?
Yes.
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Old 01.04.2010, 17:09
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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There's no "ifs" - in principle you "should" declare your mortgage and mortgage income here. You won't be taxed twice - Switzerland will only tax you on your local income (albeit at a marginally higher rate).




Yes.
What is the risk if you "forget" to declare it?
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Old 01.04.2010, 17:12
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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What is the risk if you "forget" to declare it?
Fine + back tax.
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Old 06.04.2010, 02:40
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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There's no "ifs" - in principle you "should" declare your mortgage and mortgage income here. You won't be taxed twice - Switzerland will only tax you on your local income (albeit at a marginally higher rate).
Thanks Shorrick for your clarification. I agree, technically it's not double taxation but may be "practically" it is

> Australia will tax you on your rental income as investment property is in Australia and one is Australian Citizen.
> Switzerland will consider this rental income as foreign mortgage investment income and charge you higher tax rate.

Can I further ask to clarify where would one claim tax deductions related to foreign mortgage considering it's an investment property ?

In Australia, one can claim interest payment on a mortgage (investment property only) + management expenses related to that property in tax return (as deductions/investment loss). Is this same in Switzerland ?

My confusion is where one could claim such deduction ? In Australia where one has rental income out of this investment property or in Switzerland ? Can one split the deduction claim between Australia and Switzerland ? I think it would be easier if I can provide an example :

To simplify - let's consider it's an interest only mortgage:

> 36000 AUD interest payment / year
> 5000 AUD maintenance/incidental expense
> 18000 AUD rental income / year
-----------------------------------------
> 23000 AUD / year - loss on investment

So, in the above example - in Australia one would pay income tax of around 3000 AUD on 18000AUD /year rental income. Which means one can claim/recover investment loss worth 3000AUD by submitting tax claim in Australia.

That leaves 20000AUD/year loss outstanding !!!! ( Sorry, I may have given a bad case of Investment )

As per the above example, can one include this 20000AUD /year investment loss in Tax claim in Switzerland ?

I believe I am asking the same question as poster "Jim1"

I appreciate further clarification on this matter.

Thanks in advance
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Old 06.04.2010, 10:33
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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Can I further ask to clarify where would one claim tax deductions related to foreign mortgage considering it's an investment property ?

In Australia, one can claim interest payment on a mortgage (investment property only) + management expenses related to that property in tax return (as deductions/investment loss). Is this same in Switzerland ?

My confusion is where one could claim such deduction ? In Australia where one has rental income out of this investment property or in Switzerland ? Can one split the deduction claim between Australia and Switzerland ?
If you read attentively the posts above, you'll notice the anwers to your questions are already there
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Old 06.04.2010, 15:27
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

Thanks Shorrick for replying. I just wanted to make sure I understood it correctly and hence gave an example

I found this on UBS website which is also very informative.

http://www.ubs.com/1/e/ubs_ch/privat...owitworks.html

I believe it only covers owner occupied home mortgage in Switzerland and not foreign investment properties.
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Old 06.04.2010, 15:29
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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What is the risk if you "forget" to declare it?
Fine + back tax.
There is an amnesty in 2010 for tax declarations. You need to backtrack and declare all assets back 10 years.

This way you just have to pay the back tax (doubtless with interest), but no fine.

I know this because... erm... errr... look, I just do OK.

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Old 06.04.2010, 15:58
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

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There is an amnesty in 2010 for tax declarations. You need to backtrack and declare all assets back 10 years.

This way you just have to pay the back tax (doubtless with interest), but no fine.

I know this because... erm... errr... look, I just do OK.

The Law
http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/ff/2008/2321.pdf
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Old 06.04.2010, 16:01
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Re: Taxation and foreign real estate + foreign mortgage

Unfortunately pasting a link to a document (that I would probably struggle to understand in English - let alone German) doesn't help (me).

What's your point?
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