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  #41  
Old 21.09.2011, 04:45
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

sorry, still new here and stuff and accidentally hit submit reply -

So ~ the point is that there is a restriction on who constitutes a US person and a Non US person. By the fact that someone has a VISA and it is a temporary visa which allows them to work in the united states, at the expiration of the visa they are no longer a US person because they do not have a substantive connection to the USA. This is different when you raise the issue of Illegal Aliens vs Residents / Citizens.
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  #42  
Old 21.09.2011, 05:11
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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well generally an illegal immigrant in the united states has little desire to open an offshore banking relationship in switzerland.
I said nothing about what illegal immigrants do or don't desire. I'm questioning the basis of your definitions. I don't claim to be an expert, but I've examined US tax laws enough to know that for tax administration purposes in the US, statutory definitions are used, not the arbitrary definitions you've supplied.

The US government happily collects taxes from untold numbers of "US persons" regardless of legal status, simply because they fit the statutory definition ("citizen or resident"). An expired permit does not equate to automatic tax immunity.

I furthermore question the basis of your assertion that "you will be considered a traitor if you ever decide to try and go back" after renouncing US citizenship. Subsequent visiting or residing in the US under another citizenship may well have its difficulties, but I find no evidentiary basis for your suggestion that an accusation of treason (a crime) will be the government's response.
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  #43  
Old 21.09.2011, 13:06
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

Listen American -

U.S. Person
cf. IRC 7701(a)(30) and Treas.Reg. 1.1441-1(c)(2)

The term 'United States person' means:

A citizen or resident of the United States,
A partnership created or organized in the United States or under the law of the United States or of any State,
A corporation created or organized in the United States or under the law of the United States or of any State,
Any estate or trust other than a foreign estate or foreign trust.
See Internal Revenue Code section 7701(a)(31) for the definition of a
foreign estate and a foreign trust, or Any other person that is not a foreign person.

VISA holders, Greencards all qualify as residents of the United States, although Temporary VISA holders are only temporary residents..
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  #44  
Old 21.09.2011, 14:38
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

Neither citing the entire definition nor the pejorative use of "American" changes anything...

Your definition differs from the statutory definition, and that's my only point.

Under US law, one's place of residence doesn't vaporize at the expiry of a permit or visa, as you seem to have suggested ("...after that date has lapsed someone won't be considered a US person anymore"). For taxation purposes, resident status (and therefore "US person" status) isn't dependent upon permits or visas.

In the end, even their definitions of "resident alien" and "non-resident alien" avoid an obligation on their part to consider legal status (see "substantial presence test" under 7701(b)(3), for example). Heck, there's even a separate definition for a "lawful permanent resident" category — 7701(b)(6) — that does deal with immigration law compliance.

It's a deliberately complex web of intricate obfuscation. One doesn't escape the net with common sense and logic or the use of non-statutory definitions.
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  #45  
Old 22.09.2011, 02:24
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

Yes, and this is why Wegelin & Co. decided that it was too much of a trouble to try and deal with your country and quit the US altogether.

Next step is FATCA... What a great way to try and track down tax cheats. I mean, in 20-30 years will the US need to import more capital? Probably.... Cannot see this helping the attractiveness of the marketplace.

65 years on top was a pretty good stint.
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  #46  
Old 22.09.2011, 06:24
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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Yes, and this is why Wegelin & Co. decided that it was too much of a trouble to try and deal with your country and quit the US altogether...
It's the government (not the "country") that is behind this despotism. Most Americans are apathetic and/or ignorant of what their rulers are perpetrating through US tax law.

And I happen to wish every Swiss bank (not just cantonal and private banks) would "quit the US altogether". I'm convinced that the likes of UBS and CS will reap no long-term benefit from continuing to operate in the US without pressing for unconscionable government-level concessions at the expense of both Swiss and Americans.
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  #47  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:22
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

the same applies for non-US citizens with valid green cards, btw

so it's down to the US authorities stalking the institutions and not the individuals when chasing down their super-fair double-taxation funds
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  #48  
Old 22.09.2011, 09:39
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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By definition all US citizens are unless they have renounced their citizenship
Ummm, if you have renounced your citizenship, you are no longer a US citizen!

Tom
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  #49  
Old 22.09.2011, 10:35
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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Ummm, if you have renounced your citizenship, you are no longer a US citizen!

Tom
I had to read this 6 times to get it, but you are right
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  #50  
Old 22.09.2011, 10:39
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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Solution 2 is to work on having another citizenship and bury your US passport deep in your bag. Caveat is when you apply for your new passport, it will ask you where you are born. If you put New York, obviously there aren't too many new yorks in say Germany or Ireland - so they can tell that you were born in the USA and therefore they know under Section 14 of the constitution that you were a US person.
Actually, what you are suggesting is tax evasion which I do not recommend if you have an intent to set foot in the USA in the future.

1) You cannot renounce your US Citizenship if you don't hold another one
2) If you do not renounce you are liable to the US Tax rulings. In the US failing to do so means you are criminal liable. People go to jail for this stuff.
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  #51  
Old 22.09.2011, 14:15
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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Actually, what you are suggesting is tax evasion which I do not recommend if you have an intent to set foot in the USA in the future.

1) You cannot renounce your US Citizenship if you don't hold another one
2) If you do not renounce you are liable to the US Tax rulings. In the US failing to do so means you are criminal liable. People go to jail for this stuff.
Here is an example for you.

Have a friend in Australia. Was born in the USA. HAs never worked in the USA, moved there at the age of 4.

Is a US citizen, has permanent residence in Australia and has an Irish passport too.

Guy tries to open an account with UBS or whoever, they wont accept him.

Solution sir?
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  #52  
Old 22.09.2011, 14:27
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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Here is an example for you.

Have a friend in Australia. Was born in the USA. HAs never worked in the USA, moved there at the age of 4.

Is a US citizen, has permanent residence in Australia and has an Irish passport too.

Guy tries to open an account with UBS or whoever, they wont accept him.

Solution sir?
The problem is not with Postfinance, the problem is with the laws the United States is introducing for individuals and entities covered by these laws namely: US companies, funds, securities, assets, citizens and residents regardless of physical location.

Of course US based legislators don't consider the plight of their fellow citizens/residents based abroad when they legislate from an insular/internal perspective.

Your "friend" has the option to renounce their US citizenship, and provide evidence to Postfinance to re-qualify. The banks are so sensitive that merely furnishing a US social security number is enough for them to get nervous (as this indicates US resident status, implying US tax liability and US jurisdictional legal reach with the corresponding consequences for US Code compliance on their part.

Finally as the US and Zimbabwe are the only 2 countries in the world taxing their people when non-resident, this will lead to anomalies etc.
Thank the late President Kennedy for signing the required provisions into law in the '60s......

Last edited by magyir; 22.09.2011 at 14:30. Reason: spelling
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  #53  
Old 22.09.2011, 14:28
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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Guy tries to open an account with UBS or whoever, they wont accept him.
Solution sir?
It's not that American citizens can't get bank accounts here, so I'm assuming you're talking about brokerage accounts, yes?
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  #54  
Old 22.09.2011, 14:32
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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Here is an example for you.

Have a friend in Australia. Was born in the USA. HAs never worked in the USA, moved there at the age of 4.

Is a US citizen, has permanent residence in Australia and has an Irish passport too.

Guy tries to open an account with UBS or whoever, they wont accept him.

Solution sir?
Is your friend entitled to apply for Australian citizenship yet? It only takes 4 years residence (or 2 if resident before 01.07.2007) .....Passport renunciation is no longer required since 2002. A friend of mine from Northern Ireland has his Irish, UK and Australian passport all legally held.
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  #55  
Old 22.09.2011, 16:54
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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...Passport renunciation is no longer required since 2002...
Assuming you mean citizenship renunciation, which citizenship are you referring to?
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  #56  
Old 27.09.2011, 09:12
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

I know this thread is about PostFinance and the brokerage accounts. I would like to know the status of the regular checking/savings accounts (Plus Set specifically) in multiple currencies for US citizens.

I'm planning to open Plus Set accounts in CHF, EUR, and USD. Can I do FX transactions at market rates between the accounts as a US citizens without this transaction being considered a "brokerage" account? I'm not planning to trade currencies with these accounts. Just split the money out in different currencies once every month or two.

Anybody know? If this is a regular feature of the Plus Set accounts then my US citizenship status is not a problem for what I want to do.

Thanks
DavidSJC
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  #57  
Old 27.09.2011, 10:21
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Re: PostFinance E-Trading US Person Discrimination

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I know this thread is about PostFinance and the brokerage accounts. I would like to know the status of the regular checking/savings accounts (Plus Set specifically) in multiple currencies for US citizens.

I'm planning to open Plus Set accounts in CHF, EUR, and USD. Can I do FX transactions at market rates between the accounts as a US citizens without this transaction being considered a "brokerage" account? I'm not planning to trade currencies with these accounts. Just split the money out in different currencies once every month or two.

Anybody know? If this is a regular feature of the Plus Set accounts then my US citizenship status is not a problem for what I want to do.

Thanks
DavidSJC
Probably not possible to do it.
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