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  #61  
Old 23.05.2011, 17:04
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Re: Bread

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the life of a loaf of bread depends on its capacity to retain the moisture that is added before the baking process. This is directly linked to the gluten quality of the wheat and therefore the flour.Therefore high protein north european and uk wheats create a bread that can last for a few days without going off whilst a french or south european bread with a lower gluten and therefore extensibility will give up its moisture in max 12 hours
so there.. just like with a few other things in CH you pay through the nose for low to average quality...Swiss bakers use cheap flour...I guess this is so that can see you more often
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:10
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Re: Bread

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so there.. just like with a few other things in CH you pay through the nose for low to average quality...Swiss bakers use cheap flour...I guess this is so that can see you more often
Im assuming here that the bread is discussion is just providing you with a swiss bashing mantra? because in fact the swiss bread is bought and therefore grown on different specifications that reward higher test weight (or grain size) and does not reward protein as highly .therefore as it is virtually impossible to import very much wheat into switzerland, the baker has no choice but to use the local flour, which comes from the local wheat. after all switzerland is hardly the north dakota plains is it? in fact not at all ideal to grow wheat.
one thing is absolutely for sure is that the flour is not cheap - you only have to go to your local supermarket where you buy all your groceries (i am assuming lidl in your case) and compare the price of the flour they sell there per kilo and you will realise just how expensive the flour is.
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:19
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Re: Bread

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Im assuming here that the bread is discussion is just providing you with a swiss bashing mantra? because in fact the swiss bread is bought and therefore grown on different specifications that reward higher test weight (or grain size) and does not reward protein as highly .therefore as it is virtually impossible to import very much wheat into switzerland, the baker has no choice but to use the local flour, which comes from the local wheat. after all switzerland is hardly the north dakota plains is it? in fact not at all ideal to grow wheat.
one thing is absolutely for sure is that the flour is not cheap - you only have to go to your local supermarket where you buy all your groceries (i am assuming lidl in your case) and compare the price of the flour they sell there per kilo and you will realise just how expensive the flour is.
you need to be carefull with your assumptions...I value quality and what you perceive to be CH bashing is nothing else but an attempt to support other posters who share my view about Swiss bread quality.

I shop at Aldi, local Swiss butcher or various markets in Konstanz and do not mind to pay for quality but do mind wasting money on products or food for the sake of supporting the system which includes poor Swiss farmers.
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:19
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Re: Bread

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Im assuming here that the bread is discussion is just providing you with a swiss bashing mantra? because in fact the swiss bread is bought and therefore grown on different specifications that reward higher test weight (or grain size) and does not reward protein as highly .therefore as it is virtually impossible to import very much wheat into switzerland, the baker has no choice but to use the local flour, which comes from the local wheat. after all switzerland is hardly the north dakota plains is it? in fact not at all ideal to grow wheat.
one thing is absolutely for sure is that the flour is not cheap - you only have to go to your local supermarket where you buy all your groceries (i am assuming lidl in your case) and compare the price of the flour they sell there per kilo and you will realise just how expensive the flour is.
I believe he meant cheap as "inferior quality" not "low price". And you kind of agreed to the inferior quality, no?

I am pretty sure that the climate in Germany is not that different. So either is Germany importing all the wheat for the better bread - in which case I believe the Swiss should do the same - or they simply make better bread. I do not agree that it is all about the imported wheat, it is simply the types they make as well: Here, every bakery makes more or less the same five types. I am already excited if the Migros has a seasonal olive bread or something....

I am generally a price sensitive person, but I have absolutely not problem to pay 2 CHF more if I genuinely like the bread. I currently buy most of it at Kleiner, www.kleiner-konditorei.ch, the closest thing to "good" I found here. For the prices they charge, I have a hard time to believe that one could not make some more varieties or have some four types changing every week. The problem is in my eyes more the purchasing behaviour - it looks like the Swiss are happy with the limited offer they have right now. Otherwise there would be somebody offering something different...
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  #65  
Old 23.05.2011, 17:23
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Re: Bread

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I believe he meant cheap as "inferior quality" not "low price". And you kind of agreed to the inferior quality, no?

I am pretty sure that the climate in Germany is not that different. So either is Germany importing all the wheat for the better bread - in which case I believe the Swiss should do the same - or they simply make better bread. I do not agree that it is all about the imported wheat, it is simply the types they make as well: Here, every bakery makes more or less the same five types. I am already excited if the Migros has a seasonal olive bread or something....

I am generally a price sensitive person, but I have absolutely not problem to pay 2 CHF more if I genuinely like the bread. I currently buy most of it at Kleiner, www.kleiner-konditorei.ch, the closest thing to "good" I found here. For the prices they charge, I have a hard time to believe that one could not make some more varieties or have some four types changing every week. The problem is in my eyes more the purchasing behaviour - it looks like the Swiss are happy with the limited offer they have right now. Otherwise there would be somebody offering something different...
was going to write something along those lines Trev but I'm glad you did..cheers!!
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:25
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Re: Bread

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I believe he meant cheap as "inferior quality" not "low price". And you kind of agreed to the inferior quality, no?

I am pretty sure that the climate in Germany is not that different. So either is Germany importing all the wheat for the better bread - in which case I believe the Swiss should do the same - or they simply make better bread. I do not agree that it is all about the imported wheat, it is simply the types they make as well: Here, every bakery makes more or less the same five types. I am already excited if the Migros has a seasonal olive bread or something....

I am generally a price sensitive person, but I have absolutely not problem to pay 2 CHF more if I genuinely like the bread. I currently buy most of it at Kleiner, www.kleiner-konditorei.ch, the closest thing to "good" I found here. For the prices they charge, I have a hard time to believe that one could not make some more varieties or have some four types changing every week. The problem is in my eyes more the purchasing behaviour - it looks like the Swiss are happy with the limited offer they have right now. Otherwise there would be somebody offering something different...
Germany produces a totally different variety of wheat to switzerland hence the difference in variety of flour. germany only imported wheat last year and is expected to this year due to climatic problems. switzerland cannot import wheat because of the support price system for the swiss farmer who otherwise would sell his land for housing. we have some very creative breads in the geneva area, maybe you guys need to either invest in a bread maker or make a trip down to the lac leman. pain paillasse for example
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:28
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Re: Bread

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so there.. just like with a few other things in CH you pay through the nose for low to average quality...Swiss bakers use cheap flour...I guess this is so that can see you more often
I thought i would quote this again to see who needs to reread their comments, my assumptions were perfectly well justified.
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  #68  
Old 23.05.2011, 17:29
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Re: Bread

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Germany produces a totally different variety of wheat to switzerland hence the difference in variety. germany only imported wheat last year and is expected to this year due to climatic problems. switzerland cannot import wheat because of the support price system for the swiss farmer who otherwise would sell his land for housing. we have some very creative breads in the geneva area, maybe you guys need to either invest in a bread maker or make a trip down to the lac leman. pain paillasse for example
nah...prefer a trip to beautifull Konstanz especially on Monday through Wednesday as it is quiet and not so occupied by Swiss and expats buying up bread
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  #69  
Old 23.05.2011, 17:30
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I thought i would quote this again to see who needs to reread their comments, my assumptions were perfectly well justified.
Trev explained what i meant by "cheap" no?
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:30
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nah...prefer a trip to beautifull Konstanz especially on Monday through Wednesday as it is quiet and not so occupied by Swiss and expats buying up bread
Yep its probably the right direction .......
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:33
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Re: Bread

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switzerland cannot import wheat because of the support price system for the swiss farmer who otherwise would sell his land for housing.
Sorry, but this is complete rubbish.
1. Farmers cannot sell their land for housing - you are only allowed to build a house on land that has been "zoned" for residential use. That's the same anywhere in Europe (except that some Southern Europeans typically don't give a thing and start building anyway...). Every single tax payer pays some four digit number per year to support the farmers and from the numbers I have seen, they can hardly complain. This farm for example gets some 500.000 CHF a year in subsidies before they sold a single kilo of wheat!

2. You can import anything, but you might have to pay duties on top. You can buy all types of imported (and thanks to the duties expensive) meat here in order to have some more variety than Swiss beef. Why would it be impossible to do the same with bread?
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:36
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Re: Bread

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ok week is a bit long... but give me couple of days for God's sake! even bio bread from a local bakery turns into crap after 1 day or so..never had issue with a basic rye from any German bakery or even freshly baked sort at Kaufland..sorry but German's win the bread and beer contest anytime
Let's keep beer out of this!

It's all highly subjective, of course. One of my German colleagues recently said that her favourite thing about Switzerland is the bread. Don't you find it expensive, I asked? Not compared with Germany, she replied.

Her view really surprised me, but I guess it just illustrates that it depends on what she's used to, where she lives, what she buys here etc. There are a lot of variables. She may have found some local speciality that she finds sublime.
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:36
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Re: Bread

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Sorry, but this is complete rubbish.
1. Farmers cannot sell their land for housing - you are only allowed to build a house on land that has been "zoned" for residential use. That's the same anywhere in Europe (except that some Southern Europeans typically don't give a thing and start building anyway...). Every single tax payer pays some four digit number per year to support the farmers and from the numbers I have seen, they can hardly complain. This farm for example gets some 500.000 CHF a year in subsidies before they sold a single kilo of wheat!

2. You can import anything, but you might have to pay duties on top. You can buy all types of imported (and thanks to the duties expensive) meat here in order to have some more variety than Swiss beef. Why would it be impossible to do the same with bread?
Why dont you check the regulations rather than judging the comments as rubbish before you know the facts? Incidentally I said imported wheat not bread .....
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:39
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Re: Bread

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Sorry, but this is complete rubbish.
1. Farmers cannot sell their land for housing - you are only allowed to build a house on land that has been "zoned" for residential use. That's the same anywhere in Europe (except that some Southern Europeans typically don't give a thing and start building anyway...). Every single tax payer pays some four digit number per year to support the farmers and from the numbers I have seen, they can hardly complain. This farm for example gets some 500.000 CHF a year in subsidies before they sold a single kilo of wheat!

2. You can import anything, but you might have to pay duties on top. You can buy all types of imported (and thanks to the duties expensive) meat here in order to have some more variety than Swiss beef. Why would it be impossible to do the same with bread?
i remember reading this article wondering if one of these buildings on the farm is in fact a 10 car garage

Last edited by Jaro; 23.05.2011 at 18:00.
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:39
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Re: Bread

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you need to be carefull with your assumptions...I value quality and what you perceive to be CH bashing is nothing else but an attempt to support other posters who share my view about Swiss bread quality.

I shop at Aldi, local Swiss butcher or various markets in Konstanz and do not mind to pay for quality but do mind wasting money on products or food for the sake of supporting the system which includes poor Swiss farmers.
I'm a baker or, at least I was until I moved here and tried using the local flours to make bread (not very successfully) as I have also been very underwhelmed by the local bread selection. My mother was German so I was looking forward to bakeries on every corner and becoming round from being unable to pass up a warm loaf and have been really disappointed.

I don't know if it's a quality issue or just a cultural one but I agree about finding the bread (and the baking supplies) in Switzerland rather wanting.
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  #76  
Old 23.05.2011, 17:42
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Re: Bread

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I'm a baker or, at least I was until I moved here and tried using the local flours to make bread (not very successfully) as I have also been very underwhelmed by the local bread selection. My mother was German so I was looking forward to bakeries on every corner and becoming round from being unable to pass up a warm loaf and have been really disappointed.

I don't know if it's a quality issue or just a cultural one but I agree about finding the bread (and the baking supplies) in Switzerland rather wanting.
I treasure expert opinion... thank you!
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Old 23.05.2011, 18:07
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Re: Bread

Pain paillasse is exactly the reason I got bored of Swiss bread. All crust, holes and no "flesh". We make our own now and it tastes fine to us and has the convenience of being made using UK loaf tins, so a better flesh-crust ratio.

As an aside, there is one particular loaf that I like from Sutter: Urigs brot, but that too ain't cheap.
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Old 23.05.2011, 19:23
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Re: Bread

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Understand what this line means first, then post.
If you think that I don`t know what it means .Ich bin bereit aufgeklaert zu werden .I always thought it means Germany over every thing ells, I am excluded of course
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  #79  
Old 23.05.2011, 20:02
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Re: Bread

Personally I think the Netherlands has some of the nicest bread. One nice touch is almost every bakery has a slicing machine so you can get nice sandwich and toast slices from any loaf. When I lived in Leiden there was a lovely artisan bakery near where I lived.

I also love the different kinds of Turkish bread from this place:

http://www.saraybaeckerei.ch/produkte.htm


Cheers,
Nick

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jftr:

Germany prides itself on having the largest variety of breads worldwide. More than 300-500 basic kinds of bread come together with more than 1,000 types of small bread-rolls and pastries. It has been estimated that the basic kinds of bread are so widely varied by more than 16,000 local bakeries that more than 1,000 different breads have been presented at a 2005 Cologne bread show.[15] Germans are worldwide the biggest consumers (per capita) of bread followed by Chile.[16]
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Old 23.05.2011, 20:18
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Totally agree about the Netherlands.. Great dark breads especially. Not a bread eater, but I love bread there.





Although what I really miss is a marble rye - pumpernickel and rye from the US, mostly northeast.
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