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Old 14.11.2011, 09:02
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Re: Vegan advice

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It is almost impossible to have an animal-free lifestyle. Animal products are used in almost everything. Somethings surprised me: fabric conditioner, hairspray, lipstick and even books!

How true, a freind of mine was disucssing which types of fish one should purchase, and he said to me " Das Leben als Mensch is ja immer ein bisschen schmutzig!" translated to, Its impossible not to get your hands dirty!

Try your best, its all that you can do. I think above all one can be a vegan, and be a nasty selfish, arrogant person, whats the point, you a re kind to animals but not to your fellow beings!
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  #122  
Old 14.11.2011, 09:42
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Re: Vegan advice

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It is almost impossible to have an animal-free lifestyle. Animal products are used in almost everything. Somethings surprised me: fabric conditioner, hairspray, lipstick and even books!
As I mentioned, I have several vegan friends, and was once listening to one of them discussing the benefits of being a vegan. I thought to myself, wow, this could potentially solve my cholesterol issues once and for all! I was mentally preparing to the idea of foregoing my favorite foods, which all involve animal products, when he said "...and of course to be a coherent vegan you will have to let go of your leather boots and coats...".

Say what?????

Ehm, no, thank you. I'll keep eating the burger and wearing the boots. He told me he had struggled hearing all kinds of arguments from people against veganism (do you get the proper nutrition? this is wrong. etc etc etc) but never in his life had someone told him that she could never ever become a vegan because of love for leather boots. Oh, vanity...
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  #123  
Old 14.11.2011, 11:08
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Re: Vegan advice

With Vegan diet it's easy to become B12 deficient.
Take B12 supplements.
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  #124  
Old 14.11.2011, 11:57
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Re: Vegan advice

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Total nonsense.

Coprinus have no poisonous look-a-likes, but must be picked and used immediately, or frozen.

Tom
Ah so, you know what a Coprinus looks like? That is wonderful!

The simplest and easiest method for Vegan eaters is simply to NOT cook their food! And when they do require some cooked foods, to just cook it.

Going the whole-hog route of abandoning the leather boots and belts is the extremist. And a lot of nonsense, because the extremists I have known still enjoy the leather on their Djembi drums!
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  #125  
Old 14.11.2011, 12:59
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Re: Vegan advice

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"...and of course to be a coherent vegan you will have to let go of your leather boots and coats...".

Say what?????
In fact my daughter refuses to buy leather products which makes it quite a challenge to find shoes she likes that are not made of leather, but it works.

Then again I din't know about the cosmetices, that will turn out to be a real challenge since she's so much into make-up. I think vegan cosmetics also includes make-up and soap and such not animal tested.
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  #126  
Old 14.11.2011, 13:14
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Hi,

I can see how you feel about your daughter, my mother felt the same way when i became vegan almost a decade ago. Best advice, tell her take her time, dont go extremest right off the bat. Slow down with the products and food, ease into it. Start by changing your shoes today, then months down the road your jacket or purse etc.. It can be costly, but in time everything works.

I am vegan, I do it because I believe in the rights of animals, not just cats and dogs, but also Cows, chickens and other farm animals. I dont think we should help dogs and cats, but slaughter cows and chickens alive - Have you all palyed with a calf? They are smart and active, so are pigs. It has been scientifically proven that we are herbivores by nature, bone structure, length of intestine and chewing motion as well as teeth.

Dont discourage anyone if they want to move towards this diet, if anything let them see if its for them.

You are doing a great job as taking her choices and trying to deal with them, when i became vegan my family (of vegetarians) laughed at me, and said, ''what, its just milk and cheese, animals dont die for this''.

I was made fun of quite often, even till this day I am, people who eat a greaet amount of meat look at me in an almost racial profiling type of way. Where i am not as good. Trying going to Oktoberfest..Even the waiter gets a little crazy when you try to modfiy a salad haha. But I am light at heart, and I take it easy. Ignorance and pushing your diet on to others (meat eating or not) is hurtful and comes across as bullying.

Being Indian makes it easy, as there are a ton of vegan dishes that are not labeled as vegan but are. Also there are substitutes when needed. I dont like Soy based meats, or soy byproducts, almond, rice or plant based substitutes are great. Dont worry, vegan cook books, and searching for recipes makes it fun and easier.

Education is the only factor with a vegan diet, the more you know, the better you will be. Take some time, read websites, there are a ton.

I am proud of your daughter, such a young person with a heart like that is great, especially for the environment.

To all there own, i dont look down upon others for different diets. And if you think vegans are the worst, you havent seen Vegan-jains, rawist or frutist yet They are much higher in the sacrifice scale..

Open minds build a better society. Accept one another, and keep up the good work, you are a great mother for listening and considering your daughter's feelings.

Joke (Saw on EF)....How do you know a vegan is at a dinner party............................................. ................................................
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With Vegan diet it's easy to become B12 deficient.
Take B12 supplements.

I beg to differ my good friend,

I know a old professional dietian who works on international health projects with the UN, B12 regardless of diet can or can not be a deficient.

http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html


B12 is also found in many foods that are vegan,

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

I have met dietitians in training that have strong ignorance and hatred towards a vegan diet because of their upbringing. They only know that meat is the only thing they can eat. Then they face those who have allergens against meat or dairy etc.. Then they find that its not just a choice that some make, but also a genetic topic.


Like any diet, when you eat balanced and proper, you will be ok. Knowledge is power, inform yourself.

Dont get me wrong, there are bad vegans, vegetarians, just as well as bad meat eaters etc.. I know some vegetarians that are obese.. Yes.. Obese..

Its all about knowledge, the population that eats a balanced meal is quite small (yes even me sometimes ).

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Ah so, you know what a Coprinus looks like? That is wonderful!

The simplest and easiest method for Vegan eaters is simply to NOT cook their food! And when they do require some cooked foods, to just cook it.

Going the whole-hog route of abandoning the leather boots and belts is the extremist. And a lot of nonsense, because the extremists I have known still enjoy the leather on their Djembi drums!
I dont call the abandoning of leather boots and belts extremist,
an extremist is someone who will go and destroy a leather factory or burn down a slaughter house.. Go to major stores you can find, ''man made'' things that are in high quality. I go to my local department stores and find man made things, but i have to admit, finding a mad made belt is harder, and some are cheap..

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

The whole meat industry and leather industry aid in the global downfall of the environment more than vehicles, it would be a shame to call her wish of not supporting this ''nonesense''. Lets say if everyone in India and China wore leather and ate 3 meals a day containing a large portion of meat, green house gases, and the carbon foot print would be doubled if not tripled, and thats only 2.8B people.

Nonsense is the fact that we as inhabitants of this earth do not understand the impact we are having. I just read reports online that they are thinking of doing a Triage with animals that will go extinct, tigers and pandas are on the lower ranking triage list because of the cost. Can you imagine your kids or grand kids going to a Zoo and seeing a picture of a panda or tiger and asking, ''what happened''....

I am not some Hippy that believes in peace and positiveness all the time, but reality is a b!tch, and when you have acid rain in China, smog in US cities, Coal black skies in India, ruined mining fields in Chile and a rising level of water in Netherlands.. Someone needs to ask what is the cause of this Nonsense.

Companies are also aware of this, stakeholders and stockholders want to make sure they are green as well, some companies like Unilever make it their main goal then growth.

Reality is, the future will not be good for the environment, if someone wishes to be an extremist within their own circle, good for them as long as they are not hurting anyone.

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As I mentioned, I have several vegan friends, and was once listening to one of them discussing the benefits of being a vegan. I thought to myself, wow, this could potentially solve my cholesterol issues once and for all! I was mentally preparing to the idea of foregoing my favorite foods, which all involve animal products, when he said "...and of course to be a coherent vegan you will have to let go of your leather boots and coats...".

Say what?????

Ehm, no, thank you. I'll keep eating the burger and wearing the boots. He told me he had struggled hearing all kinds of arguments from people against veganism (do you get the proper nutrition? this is wrong. etc etc etc) but never in his life had someone told him that she could never ever become a vegan because of love for leather boots. Oh, vanity...
Really, we all have choices, there is nothing wrong with your choice. No one should tell you otherwise, they can inform you, but force or ask you to change they can not.

You have to make decisions based on your life and goals,

Consideration for others (no matter what the diet) will help us all understand each other better.

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In fact my daughter refuses to buy leather products which makes it quite a challenge to find shoes she likes that are not made of leather, but it works.

Then again I din't know about the cosmetices, that will turn out to be a real challenge since she's so much into make-up. I think vegan cosmetics also includes make-up and soap and such not animal tested.

My last and strongest advice for your daughter,

Being vegan is not an easy path, she will have to make sacrifices. If she cant find her favorite color, or cosmetic item...Face reality,

Vegans have to be able and ready to give up when they cant find a substitute...I did it for Pizza, there was nothing like the real deal ..

But you control your desire and move on, but for your daughter, if she wants to still maintain a normal life while being vegan, it can work, but she might make your life harder, this is something she should not do.

I know my mother could not afford vegan mozzerlla cheese all the time(its a allot more expensive of course), so i decided to frogo it for only special occasions.

Veganism is a training, commitment and mindset. I know some vegans that are whiny brats, they must have a replacement or vegan type product.. At what expense?

Last edited by MusicChick; 14.11.2011 at 14:41. Reason: Please, multiquoting icon to click on is on next to the thank/groan button. Thanks for contribution.
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  #127  
Old 14.11.2011, 13:47
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Re: Vegan advice

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Really, we all have choices, there is nothing wrong with your choice. No one should tell you otherwise, they can inform you, but force or ask you to change they can not.

You have to make decisions based on your life and goals,

Consideration for others (no matter what the diet) will help us all understand each other better.
I really, really appreciate your point of view on this thread - your arguments are balanced, peaceful, and you have given the OP good support and advice. Thank you

And as for "we all have choices", you are 100% right. I will go even further and say that "we all pick our battles".
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  #128  
Old 14.11.2011, 13:59
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Re: Vegan advice

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I really, really appreciate your point of view on this thread - your arguments are balanced, peaceful, and you have given the OP good support and advice. Thank you

And as for "we all have choices", you are 100% right. I will go even further and say that "we all pick our battles".
We are all educated people, even if we dont hold these pieces of papers called BA's, or MBAs etc.. we are still educated.

Your words are kind and truthful,

Im serious everyone, at the end of the day its your reality.. Make your burger the way you want..vegie or meaty..

Although it would be cool if you did try vegie haha..(didnt hurt to try huh?)
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  #129  
Old 14.11.2011, 14:07
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Re: Vegan advice

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Going the whole-hog route of abandoning the leather boots and belts is the extremist. And a lot of nonsense, because the extremists I have known still enjoy the leather on their Djembi drums!
I would say it is more extreme to skin an animal to hold your trousers up when a non leather belt would do the job perfectly well.

Anyway looking after your own health and welfare of animal can be two different things for some. For example someone might think that a veg/vegan diet is superior but they might not care about animal rights. In such a cases the person could adopt a veg/vegan diet without embracing the whole vegan lifestyle?

I am a vegetarian who avoids dairy and don't knowingly buy leather products. Am I a badge wearing vegan? Probably not as vegetarian diet minus dairy is good enough for me. Leather products I don't buy because trying to relax on a leather sofa in my own flat does not relax me much. I would assume most humans would not buy a sofa made of human skin as it would feel off. Some of us get the same feeling when it comes to animal skin products.

If I visit your house and you have leather sofa then off course I would sit on it and not give you a lecture. Unlike many Vegan and veg folks I have given up on the idea of saving or changing the world. Humans are just too evil and cruel. I now just concentrate on my own inner peace and most importantly of all on my own physical health.
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  #130  
Old 14.11.2011, 14:15
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Re: Vegan advice

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We had Lebanese mezze for dinner tonight. One dish was tzatziki which uses yogurt, so no go for your daughter. But the others, hummus, baba ghanoush & tabboule served with Lebanese bread are all vegan.
I had some chili and chicken filled "chinese hamburgers" and sour-spicy pork with rice. I am proudly on top of the food chain.

http://unvegan.com/

On a serious note: I am tolerant to everyones selective diet, no matter if its religiously or ethically explained.

However, I'll always challenge you. No matter if I challenge your "religiousness" or your ethical beliefs. And in this case:

- there are damn good reasons to reject a large part of the meat-factory-farm meat production that is common in Europe. However, there is absolutely no problem to buy meat in Switzerland that came from small farms with happy cows...

- there are damn good medical reasons to eat less meat than most of us do. But there are even better medical reasons to not stop eating meat completely. Simply eat less.

- yes, gaining land for massive beef production is one of the drivers to cut down rainforests in South America. That's the stuff moby used to talk about in the 90s... But that's the beef that is more likely to end on US burgers than Swiss ones. And you know what? Ethics can be a real bitch. Because the largest driver for rainforest desctruction is by now easily the production of palm oil. You'll have a hard time finding anything made by large food corporations like Nestle that doesn't use palm oil. You'll find it especially in non-dairy food like magarine... And it won't stop at food, the stuff is pretty much all over cosmetics. It's even in bio-diesel! Bio my arse! (http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/forests/palm-oil)

My point: Trying to be a very ethical person is a great thing. Trying to be so by becoming vegan is an extreme step but it does not at all mean that you succeed if you buy the wrong vegan products. Because there are plenty that are unethical while they didn't directly kill an animal - only the habitat of them.

In short - I think it is completely impossible to be 100% ethical. It probably always was, but it surely is more difficult today than ever before as nobody of us has any clue what is really in all those product we buy. So unless you are sure that the stuff in your non-leather belt did not destroy a tiny piece of rainforest or was made by a kid in a poor country as so many of our textiles - I don't really buy your "I'm more ethical" approach, sorry. (and only looking at your food and ignoring the rest is simply silly.)

I think that as always a balanced approach is the most promising.
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  #131  
Old 14.11.2011, 14:42
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Re: Vegan advice

You make some excellent points...

However, I know at least one Swiss person (from Thurgau if that makes any difference) who became a vegetarian after visiting an abattoir with his Swiss school. He does have a probem with buying Swiss meat from happy cows. Just because it's a concept that you and I can cope with doesn't mean it's palatable to everyone.

I don't think it's about being "more" ethical than anyone else, just about being as ethical as you can (or choose to be) with the knowledge available. Personally I'd rather spend my money on fairtrade chocolate/cotton/coffee than tofu and non-leather shoes - no slavery in my house, thanks. (It helps that I don't like tofu much! ) But that's roughly the same as saying well I give to cancer research and you give to Children-in-need. Both are good causes, each of us has limited resources. If some of us prefer to expend those resources on doing the best they can for animal rights/human rights/the environment, it's all good and important and it all works towards getting palm oil and exploitative industries out of the market.

I'd like to say more but my daughter just fell asleep on my arm so I can't type!
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  #132  
Old 14.11.2011, 14:44
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Re: Vegan advice

I agree that talking things ethically so far is at the end damaging one way or another, or the wool or leather replacements are mostly so plastic. Good points, Treverus. I felt at the end of the day, I needed more energy to research on how to make sustainable lifestyle available for all the people that there are here, not a few alternative hippies (sorry if people don't get the huge amount of self deprecation in this) who are willing to go the extra mile already to sacrifice for principles. Since most people aren't of the same mindset.

I was looking in my awesommest Tajin&Couscous recipe book, and realized most of the recipes are vegan, and super super tasty.
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  #133  
Old 14.11.2011, 14:48
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I would say it is more extreme to skin an animal to hold your trousers up when a non leather belt would do the job perfectly well.

Anyway looking after your own health and welfare of animal can be two different things for some. For example someone might think that a veg/vegan diet is superior but they might not care about animal rights. In such a cases the person could adopt a veg/vegan diet without embracing the whole vegan lifestyle?

I am a vegetarian who avoids dairy and don't knowingly buy leather products. Am I a badge wearing vegan? Probably not as vegetarian diet minus dairy is good enough for me. Leather products I don't buy because trying to relax on a leather sofa in my own flat does not relax me much. I would assume most humans would not buy a sofa made of human skin as it would feel off. Some of us get the same feeling when it comes to animal skin products.

If I visit your house and you have leather sofa then off course I would sit on it and not give you a lecture. Unlike many Vegan and veg folks I have given up on the idea of saving or changing the world. Humans are just too evil and cruel. I now just concentrate on my own inner peace and most importantly of all on my own physical health.

Nice post, I agree...

A general statement for all:

many people think all vegans are this extreme cult of people that stop at nothing, and audit every thing in their life to make sure its vegan ready (i know people like this). I am not, but i am not a ''casual vegan'' either, I care for my sake, and if others want to listen (which 99% of the people do) i explain diplomatically.

I mean, if we see a Christian saying Jesus is the only God on earth, should we call other Christians the same (extremist ignorant people)? Or those who bomb abortion clinics? No....Just like everything, there are good and bad people who take part.

Ask yourself, why am I vegan, usually many answers will come. Like many things in life, it should not cause you pain, and not others. It should be fun, and healthy and bettering your life (real word?).


No matter what your diet, We all need to face reality, we need to care about this world, the future will be looking at man made places if we dont stop getting smart about how we source and create food.

We need environmental freaks and extremists (non violent/terrorist types).

Should we blame someone for giving up their life to save an endangered species? Should we condemn them as an outcast because they sacrifice their taste pleasure? No..

If you anyone has nothing nice to say, be an adult and walk away. We are all educated people, getting pleasure from bashing someone of their diet is for 10 year old bullies.

This thread is focusing on a kind caring mother trying to help her daughter in this new phase of her life, lets support her, discussing a diet and what is right is not for this thread.

BTW, science has proven that you can survive on next to nothing, just the basic human needs which are derived from plants (let alone cooked). So, to all their own, have your own diet and keep ya trap shut

Being 100% ethical is impossible...

True. Unless you are in the mountain meditating


The goal is to try to be as much as possible, of course within your budget.

We are all part of this world, there are people taking it down so fast and not caring because they dont understand.

We are educated, make smart choices on what and where we buy if you can..

Be rational, dont buy water from a special place because the person who gets it is paid well and does it comfortably. Live within your means,

Last edited by MusicChick; 14.11.2011 at 17:13. Reason: merging posts
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Old 14.11.2011, 14:55
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Re: Vegan advice

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- there are damn good medical reasons to eat less meat than most of us do. But there are even better medical reasons to not stop eating meat completely. Simply eat less.
That is absolutely not true. Let us agree to disagree. I know my veg diet has made me the healthiest I can be for the body that I was given. I eat very clean, oil free and nutritionally dense vegetarian diet. After a decade of veg diet please give me a reason why I need meat back in my diet and what exactly would I be gaining from it?

Yummy from last night. I cooked it with steam power and it is hot, spicy and very nutritional.


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Old 14.11.2011, 15:04
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Re: Vegan advice

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Be rational.. Live within your means,
Which often for lot of folks, it actually means do not go hardcore vegan. Everything costs cash, and for example my uber fancy vegan docs were so beautiful, but cost almost half more than the usual leather docs, and, lasted about 1/10 of the regular docs. Same went for a lot of other things.

Which brings us back to the OP..Can one ethically be a budget raising part of a family, doing it for ego reasons (morals in my opinion often play role in pride/ego thing), when that part of the family has zero income yet? I know this wasn't the original question and I am just being philosophical..rights of animals, a-ok with me. But if teens are taught to prioritize their ethically chosen values, putting more strain on the family, people bending backwards, not sure if that is actually ethical, although I do think they should have the right to be supported and have the chance to adapt lifestyle to their needs. But if they are self sufficient, realizing what sacrifice means.

Anyways, since I am dealing with this every day, the questions how to make things better, teens, their participation in family life, labor devision, earning a credit, self sufficiency, responsibility, plus my vegan years before, just makes me think. Not written to question OP's willingness to support her child.
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Old 14.11.2011, 15:10
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Re: Vegan advice

It is refreshing to see a very balanced discussion from people on both sides of an issue that could be contentious. (Is this really EF? )

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In fact my daughter refuses to buy leather products which makes it quite a challenge to find shoes she likes that are not made of leather, but it works.
Actually there are quite a few places that sell vegan shoes, for example: http://www.mooshoes.com/index.php.

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Then again I din't know about the cosmetices, that will turn out to be a real challenge since she's so much into make-up. I think vegan cosmetics also includes make-up and soap and such not animal tested.
And she can be into makeup and still be vegan. Look for the BDiH sign on websites. This is a seal of approval from Germany for natural cosmetics that have been tested and come up to their standards: http://www.kontrollierte-naturkosmet..._cosmetics.htm. For example: http://www.alimapure.com/.

It is great how you are supporting your daughter and I hope you continue to update us on your (both you and your daughter's) progress down this road. You have gotten a lot of really good advice. I am not vegan but I did become vegetarian at 14 and was expected to make my own meals if I couldn't eat what was made for the family. The result was I learned what it meant nutritionally to be a vegetarian. I still have one of the cookbooks that my mother brought me back then and, as she is no longer here, it reminds me of her every time I use it.
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Old 14.11.2011, 15:14
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Re: Vegan advice

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It has been scientifically proven that we are herbivores by nature, bone structure, length of intestine and chewing motion as well as teeth.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, the above statement that we have been scientifically proven to be vegetarians is downright not true I'm afraid. I'm a biologist by training and if you look into this matter you will find that meat played a critical role in the development of human society. The increased growth of our brains was only possible as our primate ancestors started consuming meat - mainly becase it contains nitrogen and amino-acids that were hard to find in vegetable foods and were critical for buiding an extended central nervous system.

But also in hunter-gatherer societies meat played a critical role - it can be made to last much easier than vegetable products and is much more nutritious - critical if you rely on carrying your food on a journey or so.

Human beings have CLEARLY evolved to be omnivores. While a lot of our food has always come from plants, meat was ALWAYS a major component and in fact critical in human evolution. How else would you explain that we in fact struggle to digest a lot of vegetabel manner (i.e. cellulose and fibres) which makes up the stable diet of true herbivores (i.e. graying animals...)

So without wanting to be cheeky, I can only quote your own statement:

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Like any diet, when you eat balanced and proper, you will be ok. Knowledge is power, inform yourself.
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Old 14.11.2011, 15:24
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Re: Vegan advice

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Which brings us back to the OP..Can one ethically be a budget raising part of a family, doing it for ego reasons (morals in my opinion often play role in pride/ego thing), when that part of the family has zero income yet? I know this wasn't the original question and I am just being philosophical..but rights of animals, a-ok with me. But if teens are taught to prioritize their ethically chosen values, putting more strain on the family, people bending backwards, not sure if that is actually ethical, although do think they should have the right to be supported and have the chance to adapt lifestyle to their needs. But if they are self sufficient, realizing what sacrifice means.
I understand those of you who have said she should be responsible and cook her own meals. do her own shopping etc. etc.

In fact I don't mind a little extra cooking and I do the shopping anyway so I might as well get the vegan food for her. She is not an adult yet and she is by no means demanding this or expecting me to do all the extra work alone.

The whole point is that I support her being a vegetarian and I will support her being vegan. I do this because I love her, I understand and respect her opinion and last not least I think it's good to cut down on meat for all family members, especially for my son who makes faces when there is no meat on the table for dinner and I keep telling him that eating too much meat will lead to health problems when he gets older, but what does a 14-year-old care about his health in the future?

Trying out tasty and interesting vegan dishes would be a good step for everybody in the family and the boys will still get some meat once or twice a week, just not every day any more. And that's what mom said....
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Old 14.11.2011, 15:25
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Re: Vegan advice

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Should we condemn them as an outcast because they sacrifice their taste pleasure?
You know clone000 in all honesty I don't even think that I sacrificed anything. I made a cold rational decision and a switch was flicked in my head. From one day to the next I became vegetarian. I have actually gained many taste pleasures as a result of becoming vegetarian.
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Old 14.11.2011, 15:31
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Re: Vegan advice

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But also in hunter-gatherer societies meat played a critical role - it can be made to last much easier than vegetable products and is much more nutritious - critical if you rely on carrying your food on a journey or so.

There's a great book by Dr.Mike Stroud called "The Survival of the fittest" and in, it, he questions why almost all humans can run for four or five hours without stopping (look at the diversity of people at the London marathon - fat, thin, tall, short).

And, as someone distinctly unsporty like Eddie Izzard has proven, we can do this for days at a time.

If we were grazers, we could could walk for a few days but there would be no need to run for hours (Cheetahs can only run for a few minutes, albeit quite fast).

Anyway, it's believed that we evolved this way in order to hunt prey in packs and eventually tire it and catch and kill it.

Anyway, interesting stuff that debunks the Vegan myth.
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