What if I told you that I was homeless? Anyway killing the animal is on a completely different level to shortage of grazing space. The cows in my area seem to be doing well as far as grazing space is concerned

wow, I never knew that cheese is considered non-vegetarian. I guess you learn something every day

Not that this will impact upon my consumption in any way, since I'm not vegetarian to begin with

Go to the source - look at the Voncafe package - my vegetarian friend told me - I didn't believe it but I looked and she was right... I'll check again tonight as this was a couple of years ago

I just meant to correct your activist assumption that calves are killed " for their stomach ".

But if you really want to go down that route, what makes it ok to kill veggies - that's a life form too...

You pretty rude for an admin. Don't make me ban you

Hi... maybe you'd like some of the alternative cheeses (i.e. no animal products) that are available at this all-vegan online store. I shop there regularly (I have a membership which gives a 5% rebate on purchases) -- the people there are very nice and they have very good service.

www.larada.org

Once you're there, you can click on "Frischsortiment" (range of fresh foods) and then click on "Hartkäse-Alternativen" (hard cheese alternatives) &/or "Streichkäse-Alternativen" (spreadable cheese alternatives).

For the person wishing to avoid animal products and by-products, and all the cruelty and suffering associated with them, this store offers a pretty good overall array of vegan products (food, personal care, etc).

Good luck

The thread was about a simple question but you obviously wanted to derail it with the favourite question that non veg people ask. A question that is supposed to be some kind of checkmate

My theory is that some non-veg people consciously or sub consciously realize that they are doing something inherently wrong when they kill an animal for eating...specially when there are vegetarian alternatives available. Instead of doing the humane thing some of these non-veg folks get nasty and aggressive towards vegetarian folks. Even when the vegetarian person is not preaching or trying to get any new converts

Anyway Shorrick as you seem to be the god round here I will try to answer your question-

1) Consuming fruits, nuts, berries etc does not kill the plant.

2) When you pluck green beans, ladies fingers, aubergine etc you are not killing the plant.

3) To kill a mammal that bleeds, cries in pain, tries to run away from the butcher JUST LIKE US requires a FAR greater degree of cruelty than when killing a plant.

4) Animals have central nervous system just like humans. Plants lack central nervous system. Even then I do not believe in harming plants for fun.

Do you understand what I mean about similarity between us and animals when it comes to pain and expression of that pain?
If you are not clear then maybe these links will make it clearer-

http://www.vegetarismus.ch/schlacht/rinder.htm
http://www.vegetarismus.ch/schlacht/schweine.htm
http://www.vegetarismus.ch/schlacht/pferde.htm

I would have posted some dead humans as well for comparison sake but you get the point. Do you find anything repulsive?

Btw Shorrick Mk2 I would like to throw a question back at you. Would you oppose farming of humans for meat? If yes then on what basis will you be opposing it? We will treat the humans kindly and kill them with zero pain


Some "choice cuts" from some great thinkers-

"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
Pythagoras, mathematician

"The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men."
Leonardo da Vinci, artist and scientist

"To a man whose mind is free there is something even more intolerable in the sufferings of animals than in the sufferings of man. For with the latter it is at least admitted that suffering is evil and that the man who causes it is a criminal. But thousands of animals are uselessly butchered every day without a shadow of remorse. If any man were to refer to it, he would be thought ridiculous. And that is the unpardonable crime."
Romain Rolland, author, Nobel Prize 1915

"If a group of beings from another planet were to land on Earth -- beings who considered themselves as superior to you as you feel yourself to be to other animals -- would you concede them the rights over you that you assume over other animals?"
George Bernard Shaw, playwright, Nobel Prize 1925

"What is it that should trace the insuperable line? ...The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?"
Jeremy Bentham, philosopher

"In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought."
Isaac Bashevis Singer, author, Nobel Prize 1978

If I wanted a checkmate, I'd have asked you what your shoes, belts et al. are made of.

I see you seem to have vast experience in the putting off of animals. In my limited experience of central nervous systems, I think I can say when I chopped off a chicken's head on a block of wood the death had been pretty instantaneous without cries of pain or the such. I'm quite sure that's what happened too when I slaughtered a pig by stabbing it in the heart.

No more than I would oppose the current farming for brains. I will suspect you'll find the altitude of the moral high ground will quickly diminish if there weren't alternative sources of food (which I realise is a far off probability... but nevertheless).

__________________
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily the opinions of management and in fact may be the opposite of that intended in order to confuse and obfuscate trolling readers.

I think that is part of the point. In this day and age it really isn't necessary to eat animals to get all of the nutrients/calories/protein/etc that a person needs on a daily basis.

I totally agree, I recently switched to a mostly vegetarian diet, and only eat meat once a week. They actually call this diet "Flexitarian". I still eat meat to get the protein and also enjoy the taste from time to time.

I know that this is now getting to be off-topic from the intent of the original post, but since you posed the question, I'd like to reply.

As already stated, humans and the other non-human animals (dogs, pigs, cows, cats, elephants, etc) differ greatly from plants when it comes to sentience. Plants, having no brain and no central nervous system, lack the conscious ability to feel pain (and pleasure, etc.). So if your post was written in a sincere concern for the plants, you can rest more easily that there is no pain experienced by the plants when they are eaten. This, of course, does not mean that we should go around wantonly destroying plant life, particularly because they are a vital element to our earth's sustainability.

Besides, if you are really concerned about plants, that would be all the more reason for you to embrace a vegan lifestyle because vegans consume the least amount of plants compared to any other diet, especially a meat-based one. The reason is due to the fact that it takes approximately 16 pounds of plant-based foods (grains/beans) to produce a pound of beef, for example. So, if you were to eat the plant-based food directly, rather than indirectly via the meat you are eating, then you would effectively consume less plants overall.

(source: John Robbins, "Diet for a New America", but there are many more, just do a search...)

Vegetarian cheese is kinda like bacon flavoured tofu...

But it's soooooo tasty!

back on topic.... "vegetarian" cheeses are available in the UK. there's some good info on the UK vegetarian Society

"Vegetarian Cheeses

Vegetarian cheeses are made with rennets of non-animal origin. In the past, fig leaves, melon, wild thistle and safflower have all supplied plant rennets for cheese making. However, most widely available vegetarian cheeses are made using rennet produced by fermentation of the fungus Mucor miehei. Vegetarian cheese may also be made using a rennet from the bacteria Bacillus subtilis or Bacillus prodigiosum."

Not sure of the regulations about this in Switzerland but I'll ask one of our cheese suppliers next week and report back.

__________________
Mike

Monger of fine British Cheeses

To add to all this info of vegeterianism...... I've heard of a section of people in this world that wont boil water or cook .. just because they will kill all sorts of organisms (germs or bacteria etc) and wont wear footwear while walking .. as they might stamp on worms or small insects........

The subject is endless.....

I think some people don't overheat their food because it looses lot of vitamins and minerals if cooked above a certain temperature.

Unless you are referring to people who belong to one of the world's oldest religion called Jainism. Some people from that Indian religion even cover their noses to try and minimize killing of small organisms Bless them I say. I rather take such people than people who say that Santa god created animals for us to eat

> Jains believe that animals and plants, as well as human beings are of equal value and should be treated with respect and compassion.

> Jains are strict vegetarians and live in a way that minimises their use of the world's resources.


Yes subject is endless but just throwing in the towel and not giving a shit about obvious suffering is very narrow minded and selfish in my humble opinion.

So should ultimately mankind evolve towards vegetarianism...is that the goal?

If we are not supposed to eat the animals, why are they then made out of meat?

I wouldn't take that line, in theory then its ok to eat you...being made out of meat and all.

If we are not supposed to eat humans then why are they made of meat?

It has nothing to do with "supposed to" or "not supposed to". There is no central divine authority directing you to eat or not eat meat. It's to do with the fact that we as humans have the power to be ethical, compassionate and not act dumb.

In my opinion it's a no brainier Why wrap SKIN of animal around your legs and body when there are perfectly good alternatives? I mean peeling skin of an animal to make a fashion statement is absolutely sick, cruel and barbaric.

Bloody covered rubbery slab of meat does not appeal to me