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  #61  
Old 06.12.2007, 22:27
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

If there are any fans of halloumi cheese around, I can confirm that the halloumi from aldi is made with veg rennet. One cannot tell from the cardboard box it is packaged in but, once opened, it is clearly written on the plastic shrinkwrap that it is vegetarian.
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  #62  
Old 21.01.2008, 00:05
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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If we are not supposed to eat humans then why are they made of meat?
This is a bad argument, because cannibalism is qualitatively different to just "eating meat". Meat from the same species is not the same thing as meat in general.

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It has nothing to do with "supposed to" or "not supposed to". There is no central divine authority directing you to eat or not eat meat. It's to do with the fact that we as humans have the power to be ethical, compassionate and not act dumb.
Indeed. Which is why I try to avoid animal products where said animal suffers unnecessarily.

However, I certainly don't feel guilty about eating meat or otherwise utilising animal products (leather, wool, etc) for the same reason I wouldn't expect a tiger to "feel guilty" about eating me. I'm higher up on the food chain. Nature dictates I can make use of both animals and plants to meet my wants and needs and shouldn't feel guilty about doing so. Morals, ethics and empathy lead me to attempt to do so in the most low-impact and humane ways possible.

Which leads me on to this. You seem to have a pretty generous definition of "sentient", and quite frankly I'm interested to see how far it goes. At what point does it not become "sick, cruel and barbaric" to kill animals because they aren't sentient ? Clearly anything warm-blooded is out, based on your comments already. How about reptiles ? How about fish ? Crustaceans ? Insects ? Bacteria ? Viruses ? Why is using bug spray or taking antibiotics any less "sick cruel and barbaric" than eating a nice juicy steak or wearing a leather jacket ? When, exactly, is a life form no longer an "animal" ?

Not to mention, if you believe, say, the tiger is sentient enough that we shouldn't eat it, why should we not hold the tiger up to the same standard and insist it doesn't eat us ?
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  #63  
Old 21.01.2008, 04:08
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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This is a bad argument, because cannibalism is qualitatively different to just "eating meat". Meat from the same species is not the same thing as meat in general.
Why because you say so?
Rest of your post I have answered on various vegetarian threads. Do a search and you will find my argument in one of them.
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  #64  
Old 21.01.2008, 06:53
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

Ever heard about "Eating to your blood type"?

"O"`s are the carnivores and need meat for their intensive stomach acid to chew on(the hunters)

Type A`s are the natural vegetarians (Agrarian) and do not require meat in their diet.

Without getting the book out .... those are the ones I recall ... being only concerned with them.
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  #65  
Old 21.01.2008, 08:28
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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Why because you say so?
Rest of your post I have answered on various vegetarian threads. Do a search and you will find my argument in one of them.
With some animals it is perfectly natural/normal for females to eat the males (e.g. black widow spiders) of the species, usually after mating.

However, ultimately cannibalism is counterproductive to any species' survival/evolution and consequently not favored by natural selection, meaning that if there were any higher animals where eating each other was the norm, they would have gone extinct a long time ago.
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  #66  
Old 21.01.2008, 12:24
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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Why because you say so?
Because it facilitates the transmission of (amongst others) prion diseases like kuru.

There's a reason why cannibalism is relatively unusual the animal world and it's got a hell of a lot more to do with evolution than it does with any fanciful ideas about morality. Animals generally don't eat other animals like themselves because it's much more likely to make them (fatally) sick.

It's for these reasons that care must be taken not inadvertently turn farmed animals into cannibals, because they develop the same diseases (which can then possibly be passed onto humans). See, for example, the Mad Cow thing in Britain. This is also another reason to prefer "organic" meats.

The simple fact is that there is a genuine difference between "eating meat" and cannibalism.
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  #67  
Old 21.01.2008, 12:30
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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With some animals it is perfectly natural/normal for females to eat the males (e.g. black widow spiders) of the species, usually after mating.
Again, there's a real difference between the occasional bit of cannibalism (eg: after mating) and it being a constant and frequent part of normal diet. There's also a real difference between, say, how insects' and mammals' digestive/nervous/etc systems work.
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  #68  
Old 22.01.2008, 09:04
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

I am bloody type O and doing fine on vegetarian diet so are millions of O type vegetarians. In fact I am the healthiest I have ever been in my entire life. All bloody types can lead perfectly healthy lives on vegetarian diet. So if you want to eat meat then that is obviously your choice but don't justify it by crap that contradicts everyday reality of millions of healthy vegetarians all around the world.

drsmithy the cannibalism point was to demonstrate the double standard in human thinking that murdering one set of animals is ok but murdering another set of animals (humans are animals) is not ok. It was not an argument from medical or evolution point of view as the reason why people don't eat other humans is not because they care about their health. If health was the driving force then they would not be stuffing themselves silly with highly saturated animal fat laden meat as that is equally if not more damaging to their body than cannibalism Same way humans would not be drinking cow milk which is suitable for 4 stomach calves and not one stomach humans.

Some more choice quotes as it's too time consuming for one person to argue against 100s of meat eaters on this board For those who are open minded!


---------------------------------

"There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. It was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop drinking it today."

Dr. Frank A. Oski
Johns Hopkins University
---------------------------------

"The human body has no more need for cows' milk than it does for dogs' milk, horses' milk, or giraffes' milk."

Michael Klapper, MD

----------------------------

"People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times."

Isaac Bashevis Singer
Laureate of literature
---------------------------------

"The human body, the very one you're sitting in right now, has no nutritional requirement for animal flesh or cow's milk. It functions superbly without them, and this includes producing healthy offspring. Mothers who do not give milk or dairy products to their children are helping their children stay healthy, rather than depriving them."

Michael A. Klaper M.D.
Author and International Lecturer
---------------------------------

"The meat-laden, Western style diet, rather than leading us to an age of prosperity and health, has contributed to an epidemic of degenerative diseases. The nations who consume the most meats suffer the highest rates of death from heart attacks, strokes, cancer, and diabetes."

Michael A. Klaper M.D.
American author and international lecturer
---------------------------------

"Most nutrition professionals agree that moving away from an animal product-based diet to a plant-based diet is the single most important improvement Americans (and others who eat similarly) can do to improve their well-being. I personally have eaten vegan for over 15 years and have raised my two children that way since birth."


George Eisman
Registered Dietitian
---------------------------------


"If the human civilization is going to invade the waters of the earth, then let it be, first of all, to carry a message of respect-respect for all life."


Jacques Cousteau
Renowned Sea Explorer
---------------------------------

"In the next ten years, one of the things you're bound to hear is that animal protein is one of the most toxic nutrients of all that can be considered……Quite simply, the more you substitute plant foods for animal foods, the healthier you are likely to be. I now consider veganism to be the ideal diet. A vegan diet-particularly one that is low in fat-will substantially reduce disease risks. Plus, we've seen not disadvantages from veganism."

T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D.
Nutritional biochemist, Cornell University
[/color]


"Humans-who enslave, castrate, experiment on, and fillet other animals-have had an understandable penchant for pretending animals do not feel pain. A sharp distinction between humans and 'animals' is essential if we are to bend them to our will, make them work for us, wear them, eat them-without any disquieting tinges of guilt or regret. It is unseemly of us, who often behave so unfeelingly toward other animals, to contend that only humans can suffer. The behavior of other animals renders such pretensions specious. They are just too much like us."


Dr. Carl Sagan & Dr. Ann Druyan
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, 1992
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Old 22.01.2008, 19:46
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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I totally agree, I recently switched to a mostly vegetarian diet, and only eat meat once a week. They actually call this diet "Flexitarian". I still eat meat to get the protein and also enjoy the taste from time to time.
hehe...Flexitarian, that sounds really cool! I am flexitarian too, never knew that
I gave up beef loong long ago...and i eat pork only maybe...once a month...but the "wings creatures"...well...i eat them twice a week...and fish from time to time...

giving up chicken is too hard...and anyways i am eating chickens that were grown up for the food line...never ask me to kill a chicken though...can't do that...

and about leather shoes...what can i say...i am sad about it...but i like them...but anyways i have only 1 pair for each season, so i am not the big killer here and i wouldn't make such a big difference either...trying to make a difference in other ways...
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Old 22.01.2008, 22:50
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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(edited for clarity)
Mr. Remedy, I fail to remember whether you (or someone) actually studied the economic feasibility of an all vegetarian diet.

In my limited brain (augmented nevertheless by a 100-page report on grain economics that was just submitted to me by my underlings), a diminution in demand of a commodity which involves high fixed costs will not drive unit cost down, but rather up.

Considering the already reduced return rate on grain production, this will cause land to be used for other more attractive investments. Scarcity of land will in turn not help with unit prices either.

So much for the "well, we will all have more to eat" i guess. But I digress.

It also comes to my attention that only a whopping total of 19% of arable land is currently used for grain production in Africa. I was hoping you could enlighten me on the causes of that situation - and specifically, why aren't land usage and hectare yield upped?
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  #71  
Old 23.01.2008, 09:53
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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drsmithy the cannibalism point was to demonstrate the double standard in human thinking that murdering one set of animals is ok but murdering another set of animals (humans are animals) is not ok.

Killing an animal for food isn't "murder". At least not for any meaningful definition of the word "murder".

You see, I grew up in the country. I've actually been on farms. I've caught a fish and eaten it. I've lopped the head off a chicken, watched it run around the yard for five minutes, and later had that same chicken for dinner. I've been around while cows, pigs and other animals were slaughtered for food (amongst other things). I've seen a flystruck sheep and understand why things like tail-docking and "mulesing" are, in fact, beneficial in the long run.

(Added to that, I *really* like bacon, eggs and steak.)

I've also seen animals after wild dogs or dingos have killed them and been along while said dogs or dingos were culled. Which is why faux moralising about humans "murdering" animals gets little more than an eye roll of me. If you want to equate killing cows with killing people because both are "sentient", then you'd damn well better be prepared to hold the animals up to the same standard every time they decide to kill for food (or "sport"), otherwise I'm just going to laugh you off as another hypocrite with an inferiority complex looking for some way to feel like he's better than everyone else.

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It was not an argument from medical or evolution point of view as the reason why people don't eat other humans is not because they care about their health. If health was the driving force then they would not be stuffing themselves silly with highly saturated animal fat laden meat as that is equally if not more damaging to their body than cannibalism
Non-sequiturs don't support your argument very well (neither do random soundbites, which can be used to support pretty much any position). There is a vast gulf of difference between degenerative brain diseases with direct causative relationships and poor health due to correlative relationships. You are being disingenuous by trying to conflate them, which weakens your position further.

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Same way humans would not be drinking cow milk which is suitable for 4 stomach calves and not one stomach humans.
The simple fact is that humans are - biologically - omnivores. We can drink milk, it provides nutritional benefits, so why shouldn't we ? Similarl, our digestive system is quite capable of processing meat and, further, meat is a good source of various nutrients found in a proper diet (as are many other animal products like, say, eggs), so there's no _scientific_ reason we shouldn't eat it.

Sure, you don't *need* meat to survive - but that in and of itself is not a justification for vegetarianism, any more than multivitamin tablets are an argument for not eating plants at all.

In other words, any *medical* or *biological* argument along the lines of "humans shouldn't eat meat" falls flat on its face. The only arguments against eating meat are subjective.

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Some more choice quotes as it's too time consuming for one person to argue against 100s of meat eaters on this board For those who are open minded!
The only closed-minded people are those suggesting the vast majority of people who consume animal-based products are in the wrong, and they are right, due to arguments based in either highly questionable moral positions or - laughably - suggestions that a diet (and lifestyle) including any animal products at all all is inherently bad.

Further, they're hypocrites, because were it not for our ancestors' use of animal products, the society we live in today wouldn't exist.

If meat were anywhere near as bad for us as the vegan zealots (and I don't put rhythmical_remedy into this group, even though I'm sure he reads stuff published by people who are) would have us believe, then the human race would never, ever have evolved the diet (not to mention digestive system, jaw structure, etc) we have today. It's as silly as the alcohol-during-pregnancy wackos who nearly think that even being in the same room as an opened beer is bad (if it were anywhere near as dangourous as they say, humanity would have died out years ago).


Now, I am not, by any stretch, suggesting people shouldn't eat plants, or that people seeking to avoid meat (and/or animal-products in general) are wrong. Nor is anyone else that I'm aware of. All I'm doing is pointing out the weakness of the attacks against people who *don't* choose to align with hardcore vegan beliefs, which are nearly all based in naive idealism, flawed moralising, and/or ridiculous extrapolation.


If you want to follow a vegan diet and never even be seen holding someone else's leather jacket, then knock yourself out - I certainly won't criticise you for it and neither will anyone else I know (although I couldn't pretend to understand your mindset). But don't go judging the rest of us filthy carnivores for not agreeing with you, and then try to come off as some sort of pariah for doing so, because you just look (and sound) like a dickhead.


(I think it'll be great when science can grow meat in great big vats from cloned cells, without real animals being involved at all. Then the vegos will be able to enjoy bacon without having to feel guilty about it (more realistically, they'll probably just start complaining about how the biopsy for the original organic material was "exploitation" or "cruel").)
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Old 23.01.2008, 11:02
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

I would surely faint if I was to go in a slaughter house... however I would also not be able to watch a live operation on a human. So does going to get surgery and enjoying my Kobe Beed steak make me a hypocrit???
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Old 23.01.2008, 11:03
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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---------------------------------

"There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. It was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop drinking it today."

Dr. Frank A. Oski
Johns Hopkins University
---------------------------------

"The human body has no more need for cows' milk than it does for dogs' milk, horses' milk, or giraffes' milk."

Michael Klapper, MD

----------------------------

"People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times."

Isaac Bashevis Singer
Laureate of literature
---------------------------------

"The human body, the very one you're sitting in right now, has no nutritional requirement for animal flesh or cow's milk. It functions superbly without them, and this includes producing healthy offspring. Mothers who do not give milk or dairy products to their children are helping their children stay healthy, rather than depriving them."

Michael A. Klaper M.D.
Author and International Lecturer
---------------------------------

"The meat-laden, Western style diet, rather than leading us to an age of prosperity and health, has contributed to an epidemic of degenerative diseases. The nations who consume the most meats suffer the highest rates of death from heart attacks, strokes, cancer, and diabetes."

Michael A. Klaper M.D.
American author and international lecturer
---------------------------------

"Most nutrition professionals agree that moving away from an animal product-based diet to a plant-based diet is the single most important improvement Americans (and others who eat similarly) can do to improve their well-being. I personally have eaten vegan for over 15 years and have raised my two children that way since birth."

George Eisman
Registered Dietitian
---------------------------------


"If the human civilization is going to invade the waters of the earth, then let it be, first of all, to carry a message of respect-respect for all life."

Jacques Cousteau
Renowned Sea Explorer
---------------------------------

"In the next ten years, one of the things you're bound to hear is that animal protein is one of the most toxic nutrients of all that can be considered……Quite simply, the more you substitute plant foods for animal foods, the healthier you are likely to be. I now consider veganism to be the ideal diet. A vegan diet-particularly one that is low in fat-will substantially reduce disease risks. Plus, we've seen not disadvantages from veganism."

T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D.
Nutritional biochemist, Cornell University
[/color]


"Humans-who enslave, castrate, experiment on, and fillet other animals-have had an understandable penchant for pretending animals do not feel pain. A sharp distinction between humans and 'animals' is essential if we are to bend them to our will, make them work for us, wear them, eat them-without any disquieting tinges of guilt or regret. It is unseemly of us, who often behave so unfeelingly toward other animals, to contend that only humans can suffer. The behavior of other animals renders such pretensions specious. They are just too much like us."

Dr. Carl Sagan & Dr. Ann Druyan
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, 1992
This is called a logical fallacy of "appeal to authority."
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  #74  
Old 23.01.2008, 11:33
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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You see, I grew up in the country. I've actually been on farms. I've caught a fish and eaten it. I've lopped the head off a chicken, watched it run around the yard for five minutes, and later had that same chicken for dinner. I've been around while cows, pigs and other animals were slaughtered for food (amongst other things). I've seen a flystruck sheep and understand why things like tail-docking and "mulesing" are, in fact, beneficial in the long run.
Your upbringing has desensitised you to their suffering

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I've also seen animals after wild dogs or dingos have killed them and been along while said dogs or dingos were culled. Which is why faux moralising about humans "murdering" animals gets little more than an eye roll of me. If you want to equate killing cows with killing people because both are "sentient", then you'd damn well better be prepared to hold the animals up to the same standard every time they decide to kill for food (or "sport"), otherwise I'm just going to laugh you off as another hypocrite with an inferiority complex looking for some way to feel like he's better than everyone else.
Humans always think that they are "superior" and "more evolved" so comparing yourself to "less evolved" animals would be a shame no?
Btw I have not once said that I am better than anyone else. More compassionate towards fellow animals? Definitely YES!

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The simple fact is that humans are - biologically - omnivores. We can drink milk, it provides nutritional benefits, so why shouldn't we ? Similarl, our digestive system is quite capable of processing meat and, further, meat is a good source of various nutrients found in a proper diet (as are many other animal products like, say, eggs), so there's no _scientific_ reason we shouldn't eat it....

In other words, any *medical* or *biological* argument along the lines of "humans shouldn't eat meat" falls flat on its face. The only arguments against eating meat are subjective.
Everything in life to some extent is subjective my friend. For example there is no scientific reason why murdering fellow humans in general is wrong. Humans have murdered each other throughout history for money, sex, love, jealousy, religion etc etc so why are we opposed to it in general? Why not make murder legal? Why is a murderer considered a bad person these days? Because some old clapped out religious book said killing was wrong (when the lord himself murdered millions)? Ain't it all subjective as well? A serial murderer enjoys killing. He hunts his own victims as well. Who are you to deny him his primeval rights? Bottom line is that everything is subjective

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The only closed-minded people are those suggesting the vast majority of people who consume animal-based products are in the wrong, and they are right, due to arguments based in either highly questionable moral positions or - laughably - suggestions that a diet (and lifestyle) including any animal products at all all is inherently bad.
It's not about right and wrong. It's about the suffering that animals have to DEFINITELY go through that is 100% wrong.

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Further, they're hypocrites, because were it not for our ancestors' use of animal products, the society we live in today wouldn't exist.
Lack of logic there. What my ancestors did was not in my hands. What you do on the other hand IS in your own hands! So if someone rapes a girl then the offspring should respect his dad's act? After all if his father had not raped his mum then he would not have been born Just because something was done in the past does not mean we can't evolve to better things in the future. Hypocrits are people that say Japanese whaling, dog meat eating, cat fur etc is wrong while munching on their Migros steak or Salmon! Some on man you can do better than that. Don't be so afraid of change

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If you want to follow a vegan diet and never even be seen holding someone else's leather jacket, then knock yourself out - I certainly won't criticise you for it and neither will anyone else I know (although I couldn't pretend to understand your mindset).
Feeling is mutual I will never understand meat eaters mindset either.
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Old 23.01.2008, 11:42
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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edited for clarity as well
Shorrick join a vegan/vegetarian forum and debate with people who are experts in those fields. I am not an expert so I don't know what kind of answer you are looking for from me? All I know is that meat industry needs tons of vegetarian food/grain to feed their animals. I don't know how accurate the following quote is (maybe you can get your bell boy to check out it's accuracy)

"Consider the following statistics: One thousand acres of soybeans yield 1,124 pounds of usable protein; one thousand acres of wheat yield 1,024 pounds of usable protein. Now consider this: One thousand acres of soybeans or wheat, when fed to a steer, will yield only about 125 pounds of usable protein. These and other findings point to a disturbing conclusion: meat-eating is directly related to World hunger."

Steven Rosen
American author: Food for the Spirit
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Old 23.01.2008, 12:39
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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I would surely faint if I was to go in a slaughter house... however I would also not be able to watch a live operation on a human. So does going to get surgery and enjoying my Kobe Beed steak make me a hypocrit???
I don't know what it makes you. Maybe thick? Comparing animal slaughter house with a surgeon operating on a human is not accurate. Compare animal slaughter house with human slaughter house or compare human operation with animal operation (say in a veterinary clinic)

Btw Canadian dude feel free to borrow my avatar to balance out all the redness on your right side. I don't want you to faint as a result of seeing all those red cards
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  #77  
Old 23.01.2008, 12:51
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

Actually, cheese and true vegetarianism don't go together...
A cow produces milk for a limited time period after giving birth (I think 5 years, but it could be less).
So unless you have unlimited real estate with viable fodder (where you can just keep having more and more cows), you will have to get rid of your excess cows somehow.
The Hare Krishnas in Australia faced that problem (they love their ghee, which is made from milk fat) and ended up having to sell their calves for meat production.
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Old 23.01.2008, 13:08
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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Actually, cheese and true vegetarianism don't go together...
A cow produces milk for a limited time period after giving birth (I think 5 years, but it could be less).
So unless you have unlimited real estate with viable fodder (where you can just keep having more and more cows), you will have to get rid of your excess cows somehow.
The Hare Krishnas in Australia faced that problem (they love their ghee, which is made from milk fat) and ended up having to sell their calves for meat production.
Yes that is why being Vegan is a better way in my humble opinion. Read the whole thread
Any link to the Hare Krishna story? If true then that is very crap of Aussie Hare Krishna folks. Maybe they should have sold some of the gold statues for fodder
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Old 23.01.2008, 13:19
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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Shorrick join a vegan/vegetarian forum and debate with people who are experts in those fields. <snip>
Isn't that where you should be rabbiting on about veganism? Is it the objective of all vegans to go forth and propagate?

If we were to discuss toothpaste you'd put a vegan slant on it, oh wait, that's already happened.

I thought something was afoot when there were twelvety replies to a question about where to buy vegetarian cheese.

The answer is simple. Grumpygrapefruit.
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Old 23.01.2008, 13:38
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Re: Where can I buy Vegetarian cheese in Zurich?

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Isn't that where you should be rabbiting on about veganism? Is it the objective of all vegans to go forth and propagate?

If we were to discuss toothpaste you'd put a vegan slant on it, oh wait, that's already happened.

I thought something was afoot when there were twelvety replies to a question about where to buy vegetarian cheese.

The answer is simple. Grumpygrapefruit.
Gooner do you speak for all meat eaters? I don't speak for all Vegans either! Some chap rightly or wrongly went on about camel bones inside toothpaste so how is that my fault? Using your logic should people not discuss toothpaste in a dental hygiene forum? If anything I created this thread to ask a very specific question and it got hijacked by meat eaters. I guess as a very biased mod you are failing to see that

Edit- A healthy forum is one that is full of diverse opinions. If my lack of toeing the Joe average line is frowned upon then please say so and I will stop posting.
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Last edited by rhythmical remedy; 23.01.2008 at 13:59.
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