Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Food and drink  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #221  
Old 22.08.2017, 11:47
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

We can regulate how to kill an animal all day long.


But this isnt legislating about how we kill animals, its legislating about how we treat the meat that has come from animals that are already dead. This legislation makes no difference to how the animal died, it merely closes the door on the use of the meat from the animal.


We have already regulated how we kill animals, by legally requiring stunning prior to death, wherever we have jurisdiction.


What this legislation is trying to regulate, however, is how we treat people who have already made changes to satisfy the first set of legislation. It will have zero impact on the animals (therefore making spurious the claims about animal welfare), but a much larger, disproportionate impact on people choosing to eat meat from an animal killed in a legal way, where it is killed.


Its quite simple, really.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #222  
Old 22.08.2017, 11:54
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,210
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Clear facts to debunk those who are motivated by other reasons than animal welfare:

1) All initiatives launched in Europe to ban ritual slaughters were initiated by nationalists (extreme right) parties. Their objective is to focus on certain communities they want to see kicked out of Europe (reference "The Populist Radical Right: A Reader" by Cas Mudde, pp 113-114). Example of such initiatives come from parties like BNP, Front National, Danish People's party, FPÖ in Austria, Freedom Party led by Geert Wilders in NL.
Brigitte Bardot the famous french "animal welfare defender" is member of the Front National and has been focusing on arab communities in France with her hate campaigns & halal. Erwin Kessler (initiator of many anti halal and kosher initiatives in Switzerland) is a known anti-semit and revisionist who was sentenced by Swiss judicial system for racial discrimination, anti-semitism and revisionism.

The use of animal welfare as argument to push out communities from certain countries has been true in the past and is still the approach used by right extremists and certain animal welfare organizations.

2) The use of "false" scientific arguments and publishing links to articles that actually say the opposite is a common strategy as well.
I invite you to read what the 2 world experts in animal slaughter wrote (Prof Joe Regenstein from Cornell University and Dr. Grandin from Colorado University). I emphasize the section here below: "So the assumption that religious slaughter of animals, which is generally slower and less efficient than secular slaughter, is less humane is potential very misleading and may in fact be wrong"

Very often "naive" and innocent animal welfare activists fall in the trap of the extreme right tactics. As Mark Twain said, it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
__________________
Resist, support, donate: ACLU
They tried to bury us, they did not know that we are seeds (Mexican proverb)
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 22.08.2017, 12:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,043
Groaned at 348 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 10,400 Times in 5,497 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
No, its about Animal welfare.

And the best way to ensure animals live worthwhile lives is to stop eating them and their products.
Once that happens they won't be bred and born to begin with. Not sure how good that is for animal welfare.

Quote:
The use of animal welfare as argument to push out communities from certain countries has been true in the past and is still the approach used by right extremists and certain animal welfare organizations.
[..]
Very often "naive" and innocent animal welfare activists fall in the trap of the extreme right tactics. As Mark Twain said, it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Neither invalidates the proposition.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #224  
Old 22.08.2017, 13:17
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 1,687
Groaned at 142 Times in 98 Posts
Thanked 4,530 Times in 1,800 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Once that happens they won't be bred and born to begin with. Not sure how good that is for animal welfare.
Very good, on all sides.

There are currently approx. 50 animals (cows, pigs, chickens, etc, etc)being raised for food production for each human being on the planet.

There's 7.5 billion of us, so that makes for 375 billion animals.

The combined weight of all of these domesticated/farm raised food production animals is now equal to approx 50x the weight of all of the wild land animals left on the planet.

The main reason for dwindling land mammal population is habitat destruction, making room for plant-based agriculture to grow all of the grains necessary to support 375 billion domestic animals.

Stop eating so much meat, and we may be able to save the last of the large animals on the planet from dying off (we've been killing them off, starting with the largest ones, for over 40,000 years now) by preserving a bit of habitat.

Less animals suffering, more wild animals, etc. - can't go wrong, really.

And just imagine that the elephant may be as familiar to your great grandchildren as a wooly mammoth or a dodo bird is to us today... tragic, and completely unnecessary. Making animals go extinct through habitat loss isn't exactly good for animal welfare.
__________________
you are being programmed
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #225  
Old 22.08.2017, 13:32
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,210
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Once that happens they won't be bred and born to begin with. Not sure how good that is for animal welfare.

Neither invalidates the proposition.
according to your relative viewpoint....it may be totally different for other people.

It's interesting to see how all keep silent on the "misuse of scientific facts" in this story. it does not seem to "bother" some people that scientist expert (real ones) in food science and animal welfare are against banning religious slaughtering. I quote again Prof. Regenstein in his letter:
"we would be happy to provide additional scientific documentation including a detailed analysis of the scientific literature that has so often been misleading at best and often intentionally distorted".
Reply With Quote
This user groans at MrVertigo for this post:
  #226  
Old 22.08.2017, 14:14
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
according to your relative viewpoint....it may be totally different for other people.

It's interesting to see how all keep silent on the "misuse of scientific facts" in this story. it does not seem to "bother" some people that scientist expert (real ones) in food science and animal welfare are against banning religious slaughtering. I quote again Prof. Regenstein in his letter:
"we would be happy to provide additional scientific documentation including a detailed analysis of the scientific literature that has so often been misleading at best and often intentionally distorted".


Im not sure thats the case. A few people have said that religous slaughter if done properly is just as cruel as non-religous slaughter. i would wager that, scientifically, that probably is the most accurate position. when the whole concept is cruel, theres scant room to claim method A is kinder then method B.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #227  
Old 22.08.2017, 14:18
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 669
Groaned at 18 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 853 Times in 392 Posts
scipio has a reputation beyond reputescipio has a reputation beyond reputescipio has a reputation beyond reputescipio has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
according to your relative viewpoint....it may be totally different for other people.

It's interesting to see how all keep silent on the "misuse of scientific facts" in this story. it does not seem to "bother" some people that scientist expert (real ones) in food science and animal welfare are against banning religious slaughtering. I quote again Prof. Regenstein in his letter:
"we would be happy to provide additional scientific documentation including a detailed analysis of the scientific literature that has so often been misleading at best and often intentionally distorted".
says the guy who ignores the scientific evidence presented previously

Quoting a single professor, is not only an argument from authority, it as well makes your point vulnerable to his personal bias - I quote from his own website:

Quote:
My primary outreach program is the Cornell Kosher and Halal Food Initiative, (CKHFI) a unique program that provides significant impact to its stakeholders. The goal of CKHFI is to help the food industry be successful in providing kosher and halal foods to consumers worldwide.
Of course somebody who wants to promote Kosher and Halal food, will have a certain bias when discussing the issue.

We have previously referred to the conclusions of different Veterinary Associations, which analyzed multiple scientific studies and concluded that slaughtering without prior stunning is cruel to animals. These independent organizations do not underlie a political or religious bias but want to help to improve conditions of animals (amongst other things). Hence, I will take their word anytime over some Professor who has his personal agenda.

As for now I will keep up to my promise and stay out of any further of discussion with you. Your comments on here are proof of your way to argue:
  • you keep lying: this motion was not initiated by a right wing politician as you imply in your previous post, but by a left wing guy together with animal welfare organizations
  • you continue to ignore and distort facts that have been raised in previous comments.




edit: Here is what your expert Prof. Regenstein says about his own scientific expertise (taken from the faculty page):

Quote:
Expertise: Fishery by-products (specifically fish gelatin; its production; characterization; and use in foods)
Revision: even though Prof. Regensteins expertise is listed as "Fishery by-products" he has as well a research section on halal and kosher related topics. Sorry for the confusion and inconvenience.

Last edited by scipio; 22.08.2017 at 15:32. Reason: addition, revision
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank scipio for this useful post:
  #228  
Old 22.08.2017, 14:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,532
Groaned at 326 Times in 266 Posts
Thanked 13,809 Times in 7,129 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

The bottom line is, as in many other issues, that Switzerland decides its own regulations. You move here, you adapt. It's not like they're gonna ban meat consumption or something.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #229  
Old 22.08.2017, 14:44
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,210
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post


says the guy who ignores the scientific evidence presented previously

Quoting a single professor, is not only an argument from authority, it as well makes your point vulnerable to his personal bias - I quote from his own website:

Of course somebody who wants to promote Kosher and Halal food, will have a certain bias when discussing the issue.

We have previously referred to the conclusions of different Veterinary Associations, which analyzed multiple scientific studies and concluded that slaughtering without prior stunning is cruel to animals. These independent organizations do not underlie a political or religious bias but want to help to improve conditions of animals (amongst other things). Hence, I will take their word anytime over some Professor who has his personal agenda.

As for now I will keep up to my promise and stay out of any further of discussion with you. Your comments on here are proof of your way to argue:
  • you keep lying: this motion was not initiated by a right wing politician as you imply in your previous post, but by a left wing guy together with animal welfare organizations
  • you continue to ignore and distort facts that have been raised in previous comments.
Scientist who are against Halal/Kasher food will also have a bias....don't you think so

I don't care about right or left.....I gave right wing examples to illustrate how this debate is misused it can be also misused by left wing as well for own political agenda.

Again the right of religious freedom is in the Swiss constitution.
Anyway, again you are short of arguments and try the escape tactics of "you are not worth discussing with"
Reply With Quote
  #230  
Old 22.08.2017, 14:53
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 513
Groaned at 186 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 1,767 Times in 872 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
A few people have said that religous slaughter if done properly is just as cruel as non-religous slaughter. i would wager that, scientifically, that probably is the most accurate position. when the whole concept is cruel, theres scant room to claim method A is kinder then method B.
Wut ??? You claimed to have been to an abbatoir ??? Hanging an animal by one leg upside down and slitting its throat (a la Hal-al slaughterhouse) is a slow agonising death usually lasting over a minute. Using a retractable bolt to penetrate the brain is instantaneous death.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at parnell for this post:
  #231  
Old 22.08.2017, 14:57
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,210
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Wut ??? You claimed to have been to an abbatoir ??? Hanging an animal by one leg upside down and slitting its throat (a la Hal-al slaughterhouse) is a slow agonising death usually lasting over a minute. Using a retractable bolt to penetrate the brain is instantaneous death.
total BS! Hanging an animal by one leg upside down for slaughter is strictly forbidden in halal and kosher slaughtering.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MrVertigo for this useful post:
  #232  
Old 22.08.2017, 15:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,043
Groaned at 348 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 10,400 Times in 5,497 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Scientist who are against Halal/Kasher food will also have a bias....don't you think so
Some may fit that category, a few certainly do but that definitely doesn't apply to all. Whereas Regenstein definitely is biased. Spot the difference.

Quote:
View Post
Again the right of religious freedom is in the Swiss constitution.
No right is absolute, in each case you weigh the importance of one against the others.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #233  
Old 22.08.2017, 15:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 8,043
Groaned at 348 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 10,400 Times in 5,497 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

In the prevously linked youtube vids the goats look like they may be under some kind of reflex that keeps them from moving. Perhaps similar to a kitten that's carried by its mother softly biting the neck pelt.

Inability to move doesn't exclude pain.

I wish the slaughters were performed under an MRI or whatever's used to measure pain.
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 22.08.2017, 15:15
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,210
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Some may fit that category, a few certainly do but that definitely doesn't apply to all. Whereas Regenstein definitely is biased. Spot the difference.


No right is absolute, in each case you weigh the importance of one against the others.
I think you are on a wrong path: i quoted both prof Regenstein and Dr. Grandin who have a high reputation in their fields and whose work/publications are respected by their peers. Their scientific work proves that if religious slaughter is done properly then it's not "less human" than any other method. I find it logical that they promote then Halal & Kosher slaughtering. I doubt that any of the armchair posters here has as much knowledge as them. I trust both of them and their scientific reputation.

We will see what the Ständerat will say but back in 2002 the total ban was refused in order to guarantee religious freedom. Then there is also what the Federal Council wrote about compatibility with WTO trade agreements. The cruelty of a slaughtering methods can't be decided unilaterally by Switzerland.
__________________
Resist, support, donate: ACLU
They tried to bury us, they did not know that we are seeds (Mexican proverb)
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 22.08.2017, 15:26
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Wut ??? You claimed to have been to an abbatoir ??? Hanging an animal by one leg upside down and slitting its throat (a la Hal-al slaughterhouse) is a slow agonising death usually lasting over a minute. Using a retractable bolt to penetrate the brain is instantaneous death.
Quote:
View Post
total BS! Hanging an animal by one leg upside down for slaughter is strictly forbidden in halal and kosher slaughtering.


Im kind of used to Parnell spouting such BS. Its par for the course, when 'mooslamics or jooz' are concerned.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #236  
Old 22.08.2017, 15:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
The bottom line is, as in many other issues, that Switzerland decides its own regulations. You move here, you adapt. It's not like they're gonna ban meat consumption or something.


Actually, thats exactly what theyre doing, for some people.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #237  
Old 22.08.2017, 15:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,532
Groaned at 326 Times in 266 Posts
Thanked 13,809 Times in 7,129 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Actually, thats exactly what theyre doing, for some people.
Well, only if they stick to eating only hahal or kosher meat. It's actually not the same, seriously. One has to decide up to which point are they willing to go in order to follow some religious restrictions.
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 22.08.2017, 15:53
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
Well, only if they stick to eating only hahal or kosher meat. It's actually not the same, seriously. One has to decide up to which point are they willing to go in order to follow some religious restrictions.

And its up to you to force them to do that, is it?


"Only eat what we say you can eat, or bugger off from Switzerland!"




Im not a fan of any of the methods, to be honest, but i know for sure that it isnt my right to demand other people do what i think they should.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at J2488 for this post:
  #239  
Old 22.08.2017, 16:03
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 513
Groaned at 186 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 1,767 Times in 872 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
total BS! Hanging an animal by one leg upside down for slaughter is strictly forbidden in halal and kosher slaughtering.
Really ?? Seen it myself in a halal slaughterhouse!
Reply With Quote
This user groans at parnell for this post:
  #240  
Old 22.08.2017, 16:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,532
Groaned at 326 Times in 266 Posts
Thanked 13,809 Times in 7,129 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Quote:
View Post
And its up to you to force them to do that, is it?


"Only eat what we say you can eat, or bugger off from Switzerland!"




Im not a fan of any of the methods, to be honest, but i know for sure that it isnt my right to demand other people do what i think they should.
To me? Why do you think so? Why so aggressive.. I have no beef in this matter, in fact I wouldn't support the ban, I made it clear in all my previous posts. But if the ban is decided, I can only conclude this is Switzerland and "we" just have to adapt.
Stop being so biased, really.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
halal, kosher




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Halal meat ZurichMetal Food and drink 4 28.04.2016 15:06
Denmark bans Kosher/Halal slaughter reids International affairs/politics 136 07.03.2014 07:50
Halal and Kosher Restaurants freya2001 Entertainment & dining 9 31.07.2013 12:08
Halal & Kosher; methods, cooking and restaurants in the Zürich area Wollishofener Entertainment & dining 4 28.11.2012 00:16
Halal/kosher meat in french speaking part of Switzerland sitifazilah Food and drink 8 21.07.2010 15:12


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0