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  #121  
Old 17.08.2017, 14:13
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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You are missing the point. Again. The life of the animal before that has NOTHING to do with the way its slaughtered. There are 4 possible combination
1. "Industrial" life (confined space, antibiotics, etc) and bolting prior to slaughter
2. Industrial life and slaughter without bolting
3. non-industrial life and and bolting prior to slaughter
4. non-industrial life and slaughter without bolting

Obviously, best is 3, worst is 2.

Wrong.


When you're harping on about animal rights, it is every bit as relevant, if not more so.
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  #122  
Old 17.08.2017, 14:19
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You are missing the point. Again. The life of the animal before that has NOTHING to do with the way its slaughtered. There are 4 possible combination
1. "Industrial" life (confined space, antibiotics, etc) and bolting prior to slaughter
2. Industrial life and slaughter without bolting
3. non-industrial life and and bolting prior to slaughter
4. non-industrial life and slaughter without bolting

Obviously, best is 3, worst is 2.
So just because YOU think it's 'obvious' no one else should even discuss it?

And 'best' for whom? I'm actually more concerned about the quality of meat on my plate, so while it's arguable, and indeed commonly accepted, that a 'non-industrial' life will improve that, I'm not convinced that it makes much difference how it's killed.

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When its about decreasing animal torture, it should be embraced without discussion.
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No it shouldnt. Ever.
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err..because you are the ultimate source of truth and everything you blabber is a lemma?
I do love the irony of you insisting that your view doesn't need discussion but any other view is someone claiming they know best.
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  #123  
Old 17.08.2017, 14:41
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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It is totally relevant. [...] I'm at the top of the food chain. The view is lovely from up here!

[...] Vegans, on the other hand, are in a much better position to lecture the rest of us, because they actually apply some moral consistency to their dietary habits.
No it is not relevant. As explained above the motion is based on a logical argument and is not based on morale. The animal welfare law defines animal cruelty and these definitions are not brought into question by the political motion. The motion raises the concern that local laws which aim to reduce animal cruelty can be bypassed by importing products which are not produced by the same standards. What is the logical argument to keep such a practice continuing?

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You're missing the point again. There is no dignity in the slaughter of animals. None at all. None whatsoever. If you want to kid yourself that death preceded by a bolt smashing through the skull is somehow less revolting than what Jews and Muslims do, then be my guest. But I've watched "humane" slaughter. It is anything but.
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Tell me, whats dignified about being stunned, decapitated, bled, skinned, gutted, chopped, packed in plastic, refrigerated, frozen, transported in bulk and cooked?
I don't want to argue semantics. Yes, the concept of killing animals is cruel. Yes, the process of killing animals is cruel. But once we accept that our society tolerates killing animals for "dietary pleasures" we should consider that there are different shades of cruelty. If there is evidence that one method of slaughter causes more distress to an animal than another one, we should abandon the more harmful method in favor for the less harmful method. Do we agree on this?

And in my understanding there is enough evidence to support the claim that ritual slaughter is a form of animal cruelty. The British Veterinary Association agrees with this position and it is supported by the German "Bundestierärztekammer", which after meta analysis of more than 70 international studies concludes that the predominant part of animals slaughtered without prior stunning are suffering from severe distress and pain.

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And I don't see how "left-wing" has anything to do with it. Lefties are perfectly capable of being racist and bigoted, and frequently are - especially when there are Zionist imperialists Jews to be put in their place.
I agree with you that him being left-wing doesn't mean that he cannot be islamophobic or antisemitic. However, there is not a shred of evidence to support such a claim. The fact that he never talked about this context and that he cooperated with three animal welfare organizations to prepare this motion make it reasonable to believe that his/their major concerns are indeed animal welfare.

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When your whole platform is that its cruel to animals, it kind of is splitting hairs.

By the time you come to kill it, its probably already suffered more than it will when it is slaughtered. Glossing over that fact is hypocritical.
Again, arguing that X is not as bad as Y, is not an argument against arguing how to solve X.
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  #124  
Old 17.08.2017, 15:16
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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The motion raises the concern that local laws which aim to reduce animal cruelty can be bypassed by importing products which are not produced by the same standards. What is the logical argument to keep such a practice continuing?

Because there is no legislation that can be passed which will bring meaningful change to how another country should treat its animals. The swiss government cannot set directives on how german or french abbatoirs should work.

I don't want to argue semantics. Yes, the concept of killing animals is cruel. Yes, the process of killing animals is cruel. But once we accept that our society tolerates killing animals for "dietary pleasures" we should consider that there are different shades of cruelty. If there is evidence that one method of slaughter causes more distress to an animal than another one, we should abandon the more harmful method in favor for the less harmful method. Do we agree on this?

Considering both end up with decapitated animals, id say they are both harmful to the same extent.

And in my understanding there is enough evidence to support the claim that ritual slaughter is a form of animal cruelty. The British Veterinary Association agrees with this position and it is supported by the German "Bundestierärztekammer", which after meta analysis of more than 70 international studies concludes that the predominant part of animals slaughtered without prior stunning are suffering from severe distress and pain.

Wrong. The BVA want to legally require stunning, religious slaughter or not. This is not the same as being against religious slaughter.

I agree with you that him being left-wing doesn't mean that he cannot be islamophobic or antisemitic. However, there is not a shred of evidence to support such a claim. The fact that he never talked about this context and that he cooperated with three animal welfare organizations to prepare this motion make it reasonable to believe that his/their major concerns are indeed animal welfare.

well intended, for sure. but impractical, diplomatically difficult, unenforceable, and counter to preexisting agreements. So, a giant waste of time.

Again, arguing that X is not as bad as Y, is not an argument against arguing how to solve X.
No, but if Y is significantly more substantial then X, then claiming that solving X is more imperative is a bit silly.
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  #125  
Old 17.08.2017, 15:25
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Tell me, whats dignified about being stunned, decapitated, bled, skinned, gutted, chopped, packed in plastic, refrigerated, frozen, transported in bulk and cooked?

By the time you come to kill it, its probably already suffered more than it will when it is slaughtered. Glossing over that fact is hypocritical.
What comes after this point is irrelevant as the animal won't feel it. This is why animals should be stunned before slaughter in order to prevent suffering afterwards. Various international Veterinary Associations agree on this point. Halal wouldn't be so bad if they would stun the animals first.

What comes before this point can, for the most part, be controlled if you take an interest in where your meat comes from.
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  #126  
Old 17.08.2017, 15:28
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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What comes after this point is irrelevant as the animal won't feel it. This is why animals should be stunned before slaughter in order to prevent suffering afterwards. Various international Veterinary Associations agree on this point. Halal wouldn't be so bad if they would stun the animals first.

What comes before this point can, for the most part, be controlled if you take an interest in where your meat comes from.
True enough, until you consider that stunning does not have a 100% success rate, and the animal actually suffers a lot before it gets the point where it gets sweet, sweet release of a metal bolt to the head.

And i hate to throw a wrench in your hatred of all things muslamic, but a vast majority of halal meat is stunned prior to slaughter.
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  #127  
Old 17.08.2017, 15:33
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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True enough, until you consider that stunning does not have a 100% success rate, and the animal actually suffers a lot before it gets the point where it gets sweet, sweet release of a metal bolt to the head.
Anything that reduces the suffering of the animal is a good thing in my view. Unfortunately this varies a great deal from abattoir to abattoir.
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  #128  
Old 17.08.2017, 15:38
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Wrong.


When you're harping on about animal rights, it is every bit as relevant, if not more so.
Read again my sentence. I said that the way of slaughter is independent of the way it has lived, I didn't even discuss animal welfare. Of course, re animal welfare the way it has lived is arguably more important than the way it is slaughtered, although both the way of life and slaughter should be considered. This is why obviously option 3 is the best one. And the current legislation is a step in that direction. Hence, its a good step.
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  #129  
Old 17.08.2017, 15:47
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Because there is no legislation that can be passed which will bring meaningful change to how another country should treat its animals. The swiss government cannot set directives on how german or french abbatoirs should work.


The fact that Switzerland can't (and shouldn't) influence the laws of other countries, has absolutely nothing to do with the question why Switzerland should allow import of such products.

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Considering both end up with decapitated animals, id say they are both harmful to the same extent.
So you are either arguing that it doesn't matter because the outcome is the same or you are making fun of my use of English vocabulary.

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Wrong. The BVA want to legally require stunning, religious slaughter or not. This is not the same as being against religious slaughter.
And why does the BVA want to legally require stunning? Because without stunning they consider (religious) slaughter as a form of animal cruelty. To be clear, the Swiss legislation does not oppose religious slaughter if it is done with prior stunning and the motion does not intend to change this (e.g. there are a halal slaughter places in CH that operate with prior stunning).

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No, but if Y is significantly more substantial then X, then claiming that solving X is more imperative is a bit silly.
Nobody says that?! In fact the animal welfare law is continuously adapted and improved. But even if this would not be the case, you are basically arguing for not changing anything whatsoever. There is always somebody prioritizing something different than you, who would continue to argue that we shouldn't discuss changing Y because Z is even more important.

PS @st2lemans instead of groaning at my posts, you are welcome to participate in a meaningful discussion - of course with concurrent groaning

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  #130  
Old 17.08.2017, 17:17
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Considering that my grandmother taught me to kill fish by decapitation, I see no problem with kosher or halal methods.

Tom


My grandmother, in her farm, used to kill chicken like that, but would do that hidden from the grandchildren.When I was 8 or 9 I was walking around the farm and caught her right at the moment she cut the throat of the poor animal. When she saw me she got scared and let the chicken escape, with no head. That was a @#$!ing bizarre scene and she felt so guilty afterwards: the chicken started rolling without direction while blood was squirting everywhere!
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  #131  
Old 17.08.2017, 17:28
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

I do not like Islam, but even I think it's too far to restrict someone's freedom to buy a @#$!ing food, whatever it is.
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  #132  
Old 17.08.2017, 17:31
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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My grandmother, in her farm, used to kill chicken like that, but would do that hidden from the grandchildren.When I was 8 or 9 I was walking around the farm and caught her right at the moment she cut the throat of the poor animal. When she saw me she got scared and let the chicken escape, with no head. That was a @#$!ing bizarre scene and she felt so guilty afterwards: the chicken started rolling without direction while blood was squirting everywhere!
Mrs. Tweedy
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Old 17.08.2017, 17:43
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

of course should be banned! Just because some people still believe in santa clause and other mumbo jumbo super hero's, doesn't mean that animals should suffer excessively for these people to get their meat.


Great, still believing in whatever religion so you can't eat mean unless kosher or halal? Become vegetarian. Problem solved.
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  #134  
Old 17.08.2017, 17:48
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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of course should be banned! Just because some people still believe in santa clause and other mumbo jumbo super hero's, doesn't mean that animals should suffer excessively for these people to get their meat.
on that note:
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  #135  
Old 17.08.2017, 17:49
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

I just googled "halal abattoir" to see what goes on there and this was the first video that came up. I'm not suggesting that cruelty doesn't take place at normal slaughterhouses, however this is pretty grim.

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Old 17.08.2017, 18:27
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Here's an excellent article by Temple Grandin regarding religious slaughter:

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaugh.html
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Old 17.08.2017, 18:55
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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I just googled "halal abattoir" to see what goes on there and this was the first video that came up. I'm not suggesting that cruelty doesn't take place at normal slaughterhouses, however this is pretty grim.


This is an unfortunate deviation from how it is supposed to be done. Vids below are worth a watch out of interest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LiqjyQqLW4
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUOOcIivwTY

Last edited by homesick_alien; 17.08.2017 at 19:06.
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  #138  
Old 17.08.2017, 20:04
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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This is an unfortunate deviation from how it is supposed to be done. Vids below are worth a watch out of interest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LiqjyQqLW4
&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUOOcIivwTY
Your videos are banned here (according to my you tube).
Was this what you wanted to show?


The third one not every one may want to watch. The first two show the technique well enough.

addition: Turns out we posted the exact same videos
And everyone went quiet for 12 hours ..... interesting.

Last edited by curley; 18.08.2017 at 08:43. Reason: addition
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  #139  
Old 18.08.2017, 14:08
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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addition: Turns out we posted the exact same videos
And everyone went quiet for 12 hours ..... interesting.
I didn't watch the videos until now and honestly am not sure what they are supposed to add to the discussion.

I'd be happy do discuss as I think it is an interesting but sensitive topic. I'm just baffled by some of the argumentation in this thread.
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  #140  
Old 18.08.2017, 15:12
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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I'm just baffled by some of the argumentation in this thread.
I as well, as I really don't get the anti Kosher/Halal POV.

Tom
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