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Old 15.08.2017, 10:32
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Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

The abohrence by western societies towards the eastern methods of animal slaughter, makes the subject of Kosher and Halal meat a little delicate.

Personally I think stunning the animals first and then slaughtering them is a good compromise, but devout Muslim and Jews do not always agree that stunning them first is acceptable.

Switzerland has banned Halal / Kosher slaughter since 1893, and the specially meat has to be imported, mainly from France.

Now the Swiss government is considering a total ban on the importation of Hala / Kosher meat, along with goose liver, frogs' legs, and fur from tortured animals.

https://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/stand...story/10698200

Google translation:

Not comparatively

An import ban on kosher meat could harm religious peace.

When the National Council adopted the motion to ban imports of animal-induced products in June, the emotions were high in West Switzerland: consumers feared that they would have to forego stuffed foie gras. As it turns out, the advance could have far more dramatic consequences - namely, an import ban on halal and kosher meat.

The subject is pre-loaded. In 1893, the very first Volksinitiative anchored the prohibition of bribery in the constitution. The initiative had been launched by animal rights activists, but the struggle for struggle was characterized by antisemitism. The focus was on the resistance against the immigration of Eastern European Jews. When the Federal Council wanted to abolish the now prohibited prohibition on bans in 2001, he met with rejection. He let the project go, but he kept to the import possibility expressly in the sense of a compromise. But the issue remained latent: two initiatives called for an import ban on short-cuts - without success. One came from animal protectionist Erwin Kessler, who was convicted of racist statements in connection with the shafts.

The Shadows are highly emotional and can harm religious peace. It is therefore all the more surprising that in the treatment of the motion a possible import ban was not an issue. Such a restriction would be drastic for the 18,000 Jews in Switzerland. For, according to Jewish doctrine, meat is not kosher when animals are dazed before the shafts. Religious Jews would therefore have to procure meat for private consumption themselves abroad, become vegetarians or emigrate. The goal of the Motion is honorable. In a weighing of goods between animal welfare and culinary arts, the latter can not be the decisive factor. However, the ritual slaughter, which is an identity-building for Jews and Muslims, requires a differentiated view. It can not simply be equated with animal cruelty and should not be the object of this advance. The implications of an import ban would be a disproportionate interference with the religious freedom of a whole community of beliefs - and unprecedented worldwide.

(Tages-Anzeiger)

Created: 14.08.2017, 23:18

Further reading

https://www.derbund.ch/schweiz/stand...story/30224134
It was the surprise surprise of the last parliamentary session, and he succeeded the Swiss National Councilor, Matthias Aebischer. On 7 June, the National Council voted for a motion Aebischers, which wants to ban the import of animal-generated products. Since then the waves have been rising in western Switzerland. For under the planned prohibition falls the stuffed foie gras, which has many followers in the Romandie.

The excitement surrounding the foie gras is so great that other foodstuffs, which are potentially covered by the ban, have completely disappeared. And to these foodstuffs, the meat of animals slaughtered according to the Islamic or Jewish rite also appears.

Against all «torture produkts»

Explicitly, Aebisher's advance does not mention either halal or kosher meat. Its motto is generally formulated: "The Federal Council is commissioned, in consideration of international obligations, to impose an import ban on animal-induced products." In addition to the foie gras, Aebischer also mentions two other products: frog's legs and furs.

But these are just examples, as the Alliance Animale makes clear, the motion together with Aebischer has worked out. The alliance is a merger of the three organizations Animal Trust, Animal in Law and Wild Animal Protection Switzerland. For her president, Katharina Büttiker, the case is clear: "There is no doubt that halal and shale meat are among the products of animals which have been tortured and imported." anesthesia.

National Councilor Aebischer says that he is striving for a basic decision against all "torture products". "It can not be that we have strict animal welfare regulations in Switzerland, which are then circumvented by import," he says. Basically, his motion also included the flesh of animals that would be stunned.

However, Aebischer points out that there is already an exception clause in the animal welfare law which allows the Jewish and Muslim community to import slaughtered meat. Such exceptions would be possible even after implementation of its motion, according to the law, says Aebischer. It was not his task as a motionary to propose exceptions to the basic principle.

The fact that Aebischers Motion potentially also affects the Schachs-Fleisch, confirmed Michael Beer, Director of the Federal Office for Food Safety and Veterinary Affairs (BLV). For: "According to the Swiss Animal Protection Act, the slaughter of animals is prohibited." At the same time, however, Beer points to the passage in Aebischers Motion, which calls for the international obligations of Switzerland to be taken into account. It was not until 2016 that the Federal Council had held that an import ban on Islamic Halal or Jewish Shark meat would violate international agreements. At that time, the state government wrote in an interpellation reply to the parliament: "In principle, import bans are contrary to the agreement for the establishment of the World Trade Organization (WTO), unless they are based on medical sanctions."

A problem for Jews

With this interpretation of the law, the Tiertier Foundation does not agree with the law. Andreas Rüttimann, the trustee of the foundation, refers to a report recently prepared by the organization. This concludes that a prohibition of imports of fur from animal cruelty would be permissible without Switzerland thereby violating its international obligations.

The relevant trade agreements provide for the possibility for states to impose prohibitions on importation, provided that they are necessary to protect public morality. According to the study authors, this also applies to animal protection, which is strongly anchored in Switzerland. As a matter of principle, an import prohibition is possible for animal-tortuous products, says Rüttimann. "It would be necessary to clarify whether this would be permissible even in the case of slaughtered meat."
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Old 15.08.2017, 11:31
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Now the Swiss government is considering a total ban on the importation of Hala / Kosher meat, along with goose liver, frogs' legs, and fur from tortured animals.
Now everything else I'm OK with, but if they try and ban Foie Gras I'll be arranging for personal supplies, even if it needs to be smuggled in.
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Old 15.08.2017, 11:42
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

It would be the logical consequence. This "we can't allow this here, so let the others do it for us" is unacceptable.
Based on that I'm all for an import ban!

Having read the article you linked, it becomes obvious that - at least some initiators - have a hidden agenda (yea, well, not even that hidden, eih?). Which is just as unacceptable.

Conclusion: If I have to vote about this, I'll be in a predicament.
(Thanks for mentioning it - gives us enough time to think about it)
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Old 15.08.2017, 11:43
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Now everything else I'm OK with, but if they try and ban Foie Gras I'll be arranging for personal supplies, even if it needs to be smuggled in.
There is Foie Gras that geese did not suffer for. They are more expensive (as they're smaller) are you prepared to pay the price?
I am. Have been for a long time (as I love the stuff too).

Last edited by curley; 17.08.2017 at 08:48. Reason: typo
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Old 15.08.2017, 12:23
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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It would be the logical consequence. This "we can't allow this here, so let the others do it for us" is unacceptable.
Based on that I'm all for an import ban!
The entire economy of the "developed world" works on this very principle.

It's the only way plebs like me can afford to buy phones, shirts and footballs.
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Old 15.08.2017, 14:46
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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It would be the logical consequence. This "we can't allow this here, so let the others do it for us" is unacceptable.
Based on that I'm all for an import ban!
This idea of having somebody else do the dirty stuff for us, or work for peanuts in sweatshops to produce the stuff we buy, is the fundamental idea behind globalisation. We couldn't live the life we do without, or if everybody got to have our ecological footprint.

Granted, there may be a red line in the sand, but where that should be seems rather arbitrary and subjective.
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Old 15.08.2017, 14:55
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Granted, there may be a red line in the sand, but where that should be seems rather arbitrary and subjective.
Well, obviously we're on this side of the red line, and Jews and Muslims should be on the other side. Nothing arbitrary about that! We are in Europe, after all.
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Old 15.08.2017, 14:56
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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The abohrence by western societies towards the eastern methods of animal slaughter, makes the subject of Kosher and Halal meat a little delicate.
As much as this is indeed torture, there is rationale behind the "ancient" methods of slaughter (not Eastern btw, it was all over the planet). Cut the throat while the heart is still pumping so that it can expel all the blood. If the blood is not expelled quickly enough it will coagulate in the smaller blood vessels. On that note, I wonder how do modern slaughter techniques ensure that all the blood is pumped out? When they stun the animals, does the heart still beat or they use some other mechanical means to extract it?

edit: just read that when stunned it causes a temporary loss of consciousness and to prevent the animal from returning to sensibility it must be bled within 15 to 23 seconds. So stunning is essentially still keeping the heartbeat. Maybe the Kosher and Halal "authorities" should reconsider their stance as stunning essentially causes loss of consciousness, but doesn't kill. Its the bleeding that causes death.

http://www.grandin.com/ritual/questi...n.methods.html
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Old 15.08.2017, 16:58
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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There is Foie Gras that geese did not suffer for. There are more expensive (as they're smaller) are you prepared to pay the price?
I am. Have been for a long time (as I love the stuff too).
Yes, it's not an everyday item for me, so on the rare occasions I'd buy it the price would be incidental. More often (3-4 times per year, max) I'll have it in a restaurant, but here in Alsace they're quite picky about it, and indeed much of it is duck liver anyway.

Then again I don't support the idea that the so-called 'force-feeding' is actually cruel in itself anyway, but that's another issue entirely.
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Old 15.08.2017, 17:31
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

Considering that my grandmother taught me to kill fish by decapitation, I see no problem with kosher or halal methods.

Tom
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Old 15.08.2017, 18:00
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

First regulate where they can pray then regulate what they can wear finally regulate what they are allowed to eat.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic deliberate removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically homogeneous. Ethnic cleansing is usually accompanied with the efforts to remove physical and cultural evidence of the targeted group in the territory.
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Old 15.08.2017, 18:56
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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There is Foie Gras that geese did not suffer for. There are more expensive (as they're smaller) are you prepared to pay the price?
I am. Have been for a long time (as I love the stuff too).
I would be prepared to pay up to one franc per gram for 'ethical' Foie Gras, but it has to be tasty - not like that awful farmed caviar.
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Old 16.08.2017, 08:50
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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First regulate where they can pray then regulate what they can wear finally regulate what they are allowed to eat.
Yep and should be intensified. The less religious a society, the better it is. Religion is meant to separate you from "the rest", teams you up and opposes one group against another. Its high time we move beyond the crap that some high and drunk ancients came up with.
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Old 16.08.2017, 09:59
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Considering that my grandmother taught me to kill fish by decapitation, I see no problem with kosher or halal methods.

Tom
I wonder if all those farmers who are killing their farm animals the old way can be accused of cruelty against animals these days...are they even allowed to that anymore?
If you think more of it - pig slaughter was a traditional feast in some countries lol
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Old 16.08.2017, 10:14
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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I wonder if all those farmers who are killing their farm animals the old way can be accused of cruelty against animals these days...are they even allowed to that anymore?
If you think more of it - pig slaughter was a traditional feast in some countries lol
Actually, some of the 'old ways' are returning to favor, over the modern practice of transporting animals to an abattoir where they die in stress and fear. A few Swiss farmers and animal welfare advocates are instead trying slaughter on the farm as being the less cruel alternative. From the NZZ in 2015:

https://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/sanfter-t...ide-1.18558829
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Old 16.08.2017, 10:21
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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I wonder if all those farmers who are killing their farm animals the old way can be accused of cruelty against animals these days...are they even allowed to that anymore?
If you think more of it - pig slaughter was a traditional feast in some countries lol
My grandfather used to slaughter a pig every Christmas, a tradition that my parents took upon once they retired and moved back to the village where my dad was born. Its a community affair, in which all the neighbors come over, help with the slaughter, prep of the meats and sausages and, of course, help in ensuring there's no more rakia left in the household (Balkan type of grape of plum brandy resembling grappa). To me the process of slaughter is arguably cruel, but the pigs life prior to that is way, way better compared to the life of an industrial pig that had 1/2 sq.m of space, fed artificial food and antibiotics and barely seen the sunlight. Who cares if that poor creature was slaughtered humanely if it suffered every single moment of its miserable life?
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Old 16.08.2017, 10:28
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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My grandfather used to slaughter a pig every Christmas, a tradition that my parents took upon once they retired and moved back to the village where my dad was born. Its a community affair, in which all the neighbors come over, help with the slaughter, prep of the meats and sausages and, of course, help in ensuring there's no more rakia left in the household (Balkan type of grape of plum brandy resembling grappa). To me the process of slaughter is arguably cruel, but the pigs live prior to that is way, way better compared to the life of an industrial pig that had 1/2 sq.m of space, fed artificial food and antibiotics and barely seen the sunlight. Who cares if that poor creature was slaughtered humanely if it suffered every single moment of its miserable life?
I know, it's the same back home.
Or it used to be, guess EU has wiped off certain traditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_slaughter

Last edited by greenmount; 16.08.2017 at 17:46.
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Old 16.08.2017, 10:43
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

I dont know about kosher meat, but i know that most halal meat in the UK is stunned prior to slaughter.
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Old 16.08.2017, 11:14
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

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Yep and should be intensified. The less religious a society, the better it is. Religion is meant to separate you from "the rest", teams you up and opposes one group against another. Its high time we move beyond the crap that some high and drunk ancients came up with.
Unless you change the Art 15 of the Swiss Federal Constitution, the freedom of thought, conscience and religion is guaranteed:
(1) Freedom of religion and conscience is guaranteed.
(2) Everyone has the right to choose freely their religion or their philosophical convictions, and to profess them alone or in community with others.
(3) Everyone has the right to join or to belong to a religious community, and to follow religious teachings.
(4) No one shall be forced to join or belong to a religious community, to participate in a religious act, or to follow religious teachings


Public spaces should be neutral, but other than that what is being discussed is preventing other communities from following dietary prescriptions based on religious beliefs. No one forces you to eat kosher or halal meat....but are we allowed to prevent those communities from IMPORTING kosher & halal food? It's a person's freedom and private choice what they want to eat. I think if it goes through then it's a clear sign of intolerance (i.e we don't want you to be part of this country).
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Old 16.08.2017, 11:40
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Re: Halal and Kosher meat, possible import ban

I can understand they don't allow slaughtering the animals here, but banning imports is taking things too far.

It's funny how people seem convinced that industrially killed animals have it "better"...Give up meat entirely if you are so concerned.
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