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Old 16.09.2018, 16:37
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Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

Any recommendations of a good soda maker? Is it really cheaper than bought soda water? Are PET bottles bad for health?

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Old 16.09.2018, 17:22
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Are PET bottles bad for health?
Nope!
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Old 16.09.2018, 18:59
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Any recommendations of a good soda maker? Is it really cheaper than bought soda water? Are PET bottles bad for health?



Soda Club.


It can hardly be more expensive than bottled water, you're taking tap water and making it fizzy
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Old 16.09.2018, 20:54
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Are PET bottles bad for health?
PET can often contain BPA which is a chemical that mimics oestrogen in the body. It is absorbed through the skin and when ingested, however, most countries regulate it and levels in most bottles are safe for consumption. There are BPA free PET bottles available if you are concerned about BPA, but I personally prefer glass bottles - best taste and environmentally friendly.
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Old 17.09.2018, 00:07
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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PET can often contain BPA which is a chemical that mimics oestrogen in the body. It is absorbed through the skin and when ingested, however, most countries regulate it and levels in most bottles are safe for consumption. There are BPA free PET bottles available if you are concerned about BPA, but I personally prefer glass bottles - best taste and environmentally friendly.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Most people's bisphenol exposure comes from consumption of food in contact with either polycarbonate (e.g. the hard plastic, reusable water bottles) or epoxy coatings (e.g. canned foods). Source: EFSA 2015 scientific opinion on bisphenol A, summarized for non-toxicologists here. It is probable that you are confusing polycarbonate, a hard reusable plastic, with PET, which is the polymer used to make the plastic beverage bottles and most of the rest of the food packaging that you buy at the grocery store.

PET does not contain BPA or any other bisphenol, it is made of terephthalate monomers, which are themselves not estrogenic or anti-androgenic. Moreover, a number of migration studies from PET bottles have consistently proven the lack of estrogenicity and other hormonal activities. PET is demonstrably NOT endocrine disrupting and all PET bottles are bisphenol-free, so any being marketed as such are just 'greenwashing' their product.

Full disclosure: I'm the endocrine disruption expert for a company which spends about CHF 8 billion on packaging, much of it PET. We've spent a lot of money over the years collecting scientific data on this issue, so I really do know what I'm on about.
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Old 17.09.2018, 07:35
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Any recommendations of a good soda maker? Is it really cheaper than bought soda water? Are PET bottles bad for health?
generally, yes.
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Old 17.09.2018, 08:04
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

Bottled water is totally unnecessary and overpriced when perfectly good, clean water is available from the tap. If you want it fizzy, get a Sodastream.
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Old 17.09.2018, 08:37
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Full disclosure: I'm the endocrine disruption expert for a company which spends about CHF 8 billion on packaging, much of it PET. We've spent a lot of money over the years collecting scientific data on this issue, so I really do know what I'm on about.
No offense intended, but the fact that you are employed by a company selling this product obviously means that you potentially may be biased, have a conflict of interest, etc. to begin with.

From Wiki:

'Due to the ubiquity of plasticized plastics, the majority of people are exposed to some level of phthalates. For example, most Americans tested by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have metabolites of multiple phthalates in their urine.[6] In studies of rodents exposed to certain phthalates, high doses have been shown to change hormone levels and cause birth defects.[7]'

and

'Endocrine disruption[edit]
Several phthalates are "plausibly" endocrine disruptors.[24] The long-term health effects of exposure to endocrine disruptors, such as phthalates, are unclear.[25]

Authors of a 2006 study of boys with undescended testis hypothesized that exposure to a combination of phthalates and anti-androgenic pesticides may have contributed to that condition.[26]

A scientific review in 2013 came to the conclusion that epidemiological and in vitro studies generally converge sufficiently to conclude that phthalate anti-androgenicity is plausible in adult men.[24]

But some have challenged these associations, noting how the research behind them has been driven more by political and cultural drivers than scientific ones.[27]'

- source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects


Best to take your phthalate-laden water with a grain of salt...


edit: here's a study published in February 2018 concerning DEHP, (the most commonly used phthalate):

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2018/1750368/
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:07
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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No offense intended, but the fact that you are employed by a company selling this product obviously means that you potentially may be biased, have a conflict of interest, etc. to begin with.

No offense either, but entering this discussion without basic chemical understanding doesn't really help.
You quoted a text about phtalates and endocrine disruptors.
Phtalates (there are many different ones) are known or suspected endocrine disruptors.
Phtalates were mainly used in softened PVC and many are banned on large scale.


BPA, possibly found in Polycarbonate as residue, is not a phtalate.
Water bottles are not made of Polycarbonate but of PET and do not contain either BPA or phtalates.



This wiki article for that reason has nothing to do with PET bottles.
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:22
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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No offense intended, but the fact that you are employed by a company selling this product obviously means that you potentially may be biased, have a conflict of interest, etc. to begin with.

From Wiki:

'Due to the ubiquity of plasticized plastics, the majority of people are exposed to some level of phthalates. For example, most Americans tested by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have metabolites of multiple phthalates in their urine.[6] In studies of rodents exposed to certain phthalates, high doses have been shown to change hormone levels and cause birth defects.[7]'

and

'Endocrine disruption[edit]
Several phthalates are "plausibly" endocrine disruptors.[24] The long-term health effects of exposure to endocrine disruptors, such as phthalates, are unclear.[25]

Authors of a 2006 study of boys with undescended testis hypothesized that exposure to a combination of phthalates and anti-androgenic pesticides may have contributed to that condition.[26]

A scientific review in 2013 came to the conclusion that epidemiological and in vitro studies generally converge sufficiently to conclude that phthalate anti-androgenicity is plausible in adult men.[24]

But some have challenged these associations, noting how the research behind them has been driven more by political and cultural drivers than scientific ones.[27]'

- source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalate#Health_effects


Best to take your phthalate-laden water with a grain of salt...
Firstly, I work for a company which consumes the packaging, not for one which manufactures it. There is no conflict of interest. Secondly, I and my family are also consumers who would be just as affected by products packaged in PET as the general population. (Thirdly, straw-man arguments are stupid, but that's another debate.)

Finally, terephthalate is not a phthalate. They are completely different chemical classes. Every thing that you said about phthalates is either true or at least under discussion in the field. (It also depends on which phthalates you are talking about, but that is also another discussion.) However NONE of what you described applies to the terephthalates which have a completely different chemical structure. PET is safe. This is not even under debate by toxicologists.

[SIDE RANT/] On this issue in particular, the media have done a horrible job of scaring the general public without providing them any good factual information or tools to help them make better decisions. The end result has been a situation high on anxiety and low on facts. At this point, any expert who interjects with a level of fact-based discussion which counteracts what people now "know" to be true is now biased or lying. [/SIDE RANT]
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:24
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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No offense intended...
Yes, there is
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:30
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Yes, there is
The usually accepted phrase is "With the greatest respect..."
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:31
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

Bpa free does not mean that it is safe. https://www.livescience.com/63592-bp...c-dangers.html
And, yes, maybe BPA and BPA substitutes are not an issue with PET, but why are we told not to reuse PET bottles and to store them in cool dark areas if leaching is not an issue?
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:33
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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edit: here's a study published in February 2018 concerning DEHP, (the most commonly used phthalate):
FYI this is dated information. DEHP was one of the first phthalates to have been substituted and hasn't been the most commonly used ortho-phthalate since well before EChA listed it as a 'substance of very high concern' (a regulatory classification) in 2017. More modern ortho-phthalates, which have been specifically designed to not have the same endocrine activities, are now generally used instead of the old ones like DEHP.
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:34
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Yes, there is
No, there isn't. :roll eyes:


Just trying to have an open discussion..
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:35
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Firstly, I work for a company which consumes the packaging, not for one which manufactures it. There is no conflict of interest.
And how much would it cost the company in increased packaging costs if PET were proven to be toxic? No conflict of interests?
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:51
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

Now that turned into a tin foil hat discussion quickly
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Old 17.09.2018, 09:52
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Bpa free does not mean that it is safe. https://www.livescience.com/63592-bp...c-dangers.html
And, yes, maybe BPA and BPA substitutes are not an issue with PET, but why are we told not to reuse PET bottles and to store them in cool dark areas if leaching is not an issue?
Ahh, researched myself, antimony. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17707454

And this on oestrogen like compounds from PET, but no link to the peer reviewed paper so needs more research I guess. http://www.abc.net.au/science/articl...29/2555698.htm
Edit... found it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19274472
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Old 17.09.2018, 10:02
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Any recommendations of a good soda maker? Is it really cheaper than bought soda water? Are PET bottles bad for health?
Don't the sodastream units normally come with glass bottles anyway?

I've been trying to cut down on plastics, not from any health scares per se, but just because it's a shocking waste. I'm not that keen on fizzy water anyway, and I just have a wide-necked glass bottle on my desk at work which I keep refilled with Zurich's finest Chateau de Tap.

Have to SMH at people lugging plazzy packs of bottled water back from the supermarket on a weekly basis. Why?
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Old 17.09.2018, 10:08
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Re: Recommendation for Soda maker ( soda water )

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Don't the sodastream units normally come with glass bottles anyway?

I've been trying to cut down on plastics, not from any health scares per se, but just because it's a shocking waste. I'm not that keen on fizzy water anyway, and I just have a wide-necked glass bottle on my desk at work which I keep refilled with Zurich's finest Chateau de Tap.

Have to SMH at people lugging plazzy packs of bottled water back from the supermarket on a weekly basis. Why?
You can get a cheap sodastream (50chf) with plastic bottles, or a "crystal" one for 100 with a glass bottle.
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