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Old 15.10.2021, 12:15
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The Wine Thread

As noted in another thread, it seems we have a lot of foodies and wine fans on here.

It might be nice to note any experiences, favourites, best places to go and anything generally Oenological

OK, who am I kidding, let's help each other out finding the cheapest boxes of Primitivo we can...

Here's my first rec:
https://www.coop.ch/en/wine/wine-ass...a/p/1000788015

This is often on sale in various places and I've had it for under 5chf a bottle with various offers. I have a cellar half full (was actually full a few months ago ) of it. 14chf is probably it's "correct" price quality wise, but keep an eye on it and you can pick it up dirt cheap.
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Old 15.10.2021, 12:34
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Re: The Wine Thread

I'm a bit of a foodie... but not necessarily the high end stuff (although I was a food reviewer in Japan who was tasked with the unenviable (lol) task of eating my way through every Michelin starred restaurant in our city - the magazine owner and editor was vegan, I was opinionated and omnivorous), I often like to recreate comfort foods that are not available, not made 'properly' (my opinion only), or cost waaaaay too much wherever I am.

So I'll eventually be starting more food threads... but I love me some wine.

The wines I have been sipping recently are generally Gamay from the region I'm in. They are fairly cheap, and most have been fairly flavorful (I like the spiciness of Cabernet Francs from my hometown), although I did get one that tasted thin (I still drank it, but I will avoid it next time). Any suggestions?

Also I have a pretty good knowledge of sake, and I've found quite a bit of it in Geneva, some wickedly overpriced, some garbage, and some pretty decent values (considering where it shipped from), so if you need sake advice, and have questions... fire away... glad to help... and hopefully... we can share some.
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Old 15.10.2021, 12:34
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Re: The Wine Thread

Anybody here into natural wines? My obsession ... funky, unique and much less headache inducing.

For those of you in Zurich, I can highly recommend the following natural wine bar for good times and delicious bites:

https://www.gamper-bar.ch/
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Old 15.10.2021, 12:40
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Re: The Wine Thread

Thanks a lot!

While you made the first post I made a search for wine to see if it was worth to revive a thread but no. Only found about wine clubs and courses which I find boring.

I also found a thread nobody cared to answer about Bondola grape wine, I know producers in Sementina (TI). No shop close to ZH but the producers would happily sent your home. About best Swiss wine, the grand prix du vin suisse was a month ago, results here: https://www.vinea.ch/grand-prix-du-vin-suisse/ We can talk a lot about this.

Haha you're joking but the Primitivo di Salento Coop offered last year with the superpoints was too good for the 5CHF per botle price. Great for grilling, while lightning the charcoal, while eating and dessert.

Wife and me prefer more to go directly to vignerons/winemakers. It's always driving somewhere nice in Switzerland, France, Italy. Once covid thingy ends, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Hungary, who knows?. If not, caves ouverts/offene winekeller/cantina aperta or wine fairs like divinum.

This weekend we go to Diego Mathier shop to Hochdorf (LU). The grapes are in Salgesh, Wallis just at the language border, but they have a shop on the north side of the Alps. I can only recommend Ermitage and Syrah from them. Merlot is good but it varies a lot among different years. The top from them is.......raclette. We're buying half moule of raclette from Val de Bagnes at an unbeatable price
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Old 15.10.2021, 12:50
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Anybody here into natural wines? My obsession ... funky, unique and much less headache inducing.

For those of you in Zurich, I can highly recommend the following natural wine bar for good times and delicious bites:

https://www.gamper-bar.ch/
What's a natural wine? Like Bio?

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The wines I have been sipping recently are generally Gamay from the region I'm in. They are fairly cheap, and most have been fairly flavorful (I like the spiciness of Cabernet Francs from my hometown), although I did get one that tasted thin (I still drank it, but I will avoid it next time). Any suggestions?
Gamay lacks flavor for me. I prefer more flavorful wines, both white and red. I think half of times I drink wine is without food, just enjoying the damned thing.

You're a bit lucky that covid postponed events to the end of the year that should have taken place last spring. Very close to your place there's two events where you can taste a lot of local wines:

1) Open cellar doors in the towns of Luins and Vinzel (la Côte) on November 8 a 9th: https://caveau-luins-vinzel.ch/evenements/le-bourru/ The event with a touristic train transporting you from cave to cave is "cancelled", but some winemakers will still open their doors for visitors.

2) The wine fair Divinum in Morges from November 18 to 29 is open https://salon-divinum.ch/salon/ This is from wines around the world, anyway there's a rather large selection of Swiss wines. Wife and me are going for 2 days. If you live nearby you can go daily and still not finish tasting all of them
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Old 15.10.2021, 13:25
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Re: The Wine Thread

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As noted in another thread, it seems we have a lot of foodies and wine fans on here.

It might be nice to note any experiences, favourites, best places to go and anything generally Oenological

OK, who am I kidding, let's help each other out finding the cheapest boxes of Primitivo we can...

Here's my first rec:
https://www.coop.ch/en/wine/wine-ass...a/p/1000788015

This is often on sale in various places and I've had it for under 5chf a bottle with various offers. I have a cellar half full (was actually full a few months ago ) of it. 14chf is probably it's "correct" price quality wise, but keep an eye on it and you can pick it up dirt cheap.

Don't confuse "good" and "cheap" it does exist but it is usually VERY difficult to find
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Old 15.10.2021, 13:26
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Don't confuse "good" and "cheap" it does exist but it is usually VERY difficult to find
That's what we're here for
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Old 15.10.2021, 13:28
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Re: The Wine Thread

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What's a natural wine? Like Bio?



Gamay lacks flavor for me. I prefer more flavorful wines, both white and red. I think half of times I drink wine is without food, just enjoying the damned thing.

You're a bit lucky that covid postponed events to the end of the year that should have taken place last spring. Very close to your place there's two events where you can taste a lot of local wines:

1) Open cellar doors in the towns of Luins and Vinzel (la Côte) on November 8 a 9th: https://caveau-luins-vinzel.ch/evenements/le-bourru/ The event with a touristic train transporting you from cave to cave is "cancelled", but some winemakers will still open their doors for visitors.

2) The wine fair Divinum in Morges from November 18 to 29 is open https://salon-divinum.ch/salon/ This is from wines around the world, anyway there's a rather large selection of Swiss wines. Wife and me are going for 2 days. If you live nearby you can go daily and still not finish tasting all of them
Excellent... my wife tends to fall asleep after a third of a glass, so we might not make it to these yet, until she has friends to hang out with as well (not much fun for her to watch me drink).

If you've got some recommendations of some flavorful local reds instead of the Gamay (or in addition), certainly welcomed!
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Old 15.10.2021, 14:06
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Re: The Wine Thread

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If you've got some recommendations of some flavorful local reds instead of the Gamay (or in addition), certainly welcomed!
Pinot Noir: great wines but year to year variability is huge. Also the difference between winemakers is good. Winemakers I can bet they're bottles are great: La Maison Carrée from Auvernier, Neuchâtel and Weinschmeide in Salgesh, Walis. The inox versions are good and the barrique are delicious. The rosé version is called oeil de perdrix (for the color of the bird's eye). It is great in NE, I'm sure those birds have been extinct for a long time in Wallis.

Merlot from Ticino: most of them are good, but don't understand the variability in prices. 16-20 CHF ones are as good as 30-35 CHF ones...unless you test before buying. I've only tasted wines from north/high Ticino (Bellinzona, Sementina, Giubiascco), not arrived yet to the wines south from there. From that region I can recommend Azienda Mondó, Chiericati Vini.

There's also local cabernet jura and gamaret.... but damned I have to send invoices now

Close to your place there are 2 great winemakers. Domaine la capitaine in Gland, I like their gewurztraminer, it's not Alsace, but anyway interesting. And, Domain des Abeilles d'Or in Chouilly, all their whites are awesome. I realize now that I only know great whites from VD and GE.
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Old 15.10.2021, 14:44
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Pinot Noir: great wines but year to year variability is huge. Also the difference between winemakers is good. Winemakers I can bet they're bottles are great: La Maison Carrée from Auvernier, Neuchâtel and Weinschmeide in Salgesh, Walis. The inox versions are good and the barrique are delicious. The rosé version is called oeil de perdrix (for the color of the bird's eye). It is great in NE, I'm sure those birds have been extinct for a long time in Wallis.

Merlot from Ticino: most of them are good, but don't understand the variability in prices. 16-20 CHF ones are as good as 30-35 CHF ones...unless you test before buying. I've only tasted wines from north/high Ticino (Bellinzona, Sementina, Giubiascco), not arrived yet to the wines south from there. From that region I can recommend Azienda Mondó, Chiericati Vini.

There's also local cabernet jura and gamaret.... but damned I have to send invoices now

Close to your place there are 2 great winemakers. Domaine la capitaine in Gland, I like their gewurztraminer, it's not Alsace, but anyway interesting. And, Domain des Abeilles d'Or in Chouilly, all their whites are awesome. I realize now that I only know great whites from VD and GE.
La Capitaine is definitely worth a visit plus their wines are Bio
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Old 15.10.2021, 15:05
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Re: The Wine Thread

Great thread, thanks! Unfortunately I don't know much about Swiss wines, but been drinking the following recently:

Glenelly - Lady May 2014/15 (15 is a much better year) Bordeaux Blend from South Africa. Really excellent value for the money at around CHF50

Anthonij Rupert Blend - 2012. Another Bordeaux Blend from South Africa. Currently reduced from CHF109 to CHF79 (Kapweine) Really a cracking wine!

Alion Ribera 2016 - Really lovely Ribera, probably too young to drink

Langoa Barton 2014 (St Julien) - Great, you guessed it, Bordeaux blend!

Errazuriz - Don Maximiano Founder's Reserve 2007. Chilean (and this is getting embarrassing) Bordeaux blend. This is my go to wine and never fails to impress

Wines that are on my list of 'have to try': Penfolds Grange, Opus One, Stags Leap SLV, Mondavi The Reserve, Sassicaia, Tignanello. Any suggestions welcome, but not to the level of Petrus, Ponsot etc! (I'm too poor!)
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Old 15.10.2021, 15:07
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Re: The Wine Thread

I have been particularly impressed with the quality, price and service of Delinat. They have a wide range of bio (organic) wines and supply mixed cartons so you can rate what you like best and order more.

Order online, delivered in 2 to 3 days and the carrier collects the empty boxes from your last order…
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Old 15.10.2021, 15:24
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Pinot Noir: great wines but year to year variability is huge. Also the difference between winemakers is good. Winemakers I can bet they're bottles are great: La Maison Carrée from Auvernier, Neuchâtel and Weinschmeide in Salgesh, Walis. The inox versions are good and the barrique are delicious. The rosé version is called oeil de perdrix (for the color of the bird's eye). It is great in NE, I'm sure those birds have been extinct for a long time in Wallis.

Merlot from Ticino: most of them are good, but don't understand the variability in prices. 16-20 CHF ones are as good as 30-35 CHF ones...unless you test before buying. I've only tasted wines from north/high Ticino (Bellinzona, Sementina, Giubiascco), not arrived yet to the wines south from there. From that region I can recommend Azienda Mondó, Chiericati Vini.

There's also local cabernet jura and gamaret.... but damned I have to send invoices now

Close to your place there are 2 great winemakers. Domaine la capitaine in Gland, I like their gewurztraminer, it's not Alsace, but anyway interesting. And, Domain des Abeilles d'Or in Chouilly, all their whites are awesome. I realize now that I only know great whites from VD and GE.
Time for me to offer a contrary view. I will preface it with I am very picky with the wines I drink… lots of wine is drinkable in situ, but generally speaking for me regular drinking wine comes from Burgundy or the Loire(and perhaps a few top end from Langhe) for white, red comes from Bordeaux, Piedmont or Tuscany for Super Tuscans.

I have never had a Swiss red that I thought was good or stood up to foreign competition at the same price point. This includes a range of Ticenese Merlots, the allegedly amazing Gantenbein Pinot Noir and various reds at caves ouvertes around Geneva and at wine fairs. I did have a nice Ticenese white merlot recently though. A small producer in Geneva also does a nice sweet red called Le Mutin.

https://www.lesvallieres.ch/vindet.asp?l=1&n=49&s=2

If you want a red with a Swiss connection at a reasonable price I find Dieter Meier‘s Puro Argentinian Malbec has a decent price/performance ratio.

White wine is a slightly different story. Again around Geneva, particularly the village of Peissy, there are some excellent Chardonnay (Barrique and non), Sauvignon Blanc/Gris, Chasselas and assemblages. Domaine des charmes, Domaine des trois etoiles for example. But they are difficult to get on the German side of the country and honestly I‘m not sure CHF for CHF they are better than their French cousins. On the German side I live in the vineyards and even have a small number of currently unproductive Riesling x Sylvaner vines. It‘s perfectly drinkable, but again I question the value for money.

For rosé Provence is where it‘s at for me and my recommendation here is Miraval. Look past the Brangelina connection and it‘s actually a very decent wine and is frequently on offer at Aligro for CHF 14-15 a bottle rather than the 23 you pay at Coop.

Both Aligro and TopCC cash and carry have some great deals on wines from low end all the way to 1st growth Bordeaux. No membership needed for Aligro, but for TopCC you can get membership through a lot of employers. Aligro is also good for meat and fish/shellfish to go with the wine.
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Old 15.10.2021, 15:40
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Wines that are on my list of 'have to try': Penfolds Grange, Opus One, Stags Leap SLV, Mondavi The Reserve, Sassicaia, Tignanello. Any suggestions welcome, but not to the level of Petrus, Ponsot etc! (I'm too poor!)
I got a flyer through from Mondovino yesterday that has Tignanello 2017 half bottles for 55 or full 2018 bottles for 92. Mövenpick were doing en primeur Tignanello for an embarrassingly cheap price, but looks like they‘ve sold out now.

For Sassicaia (and I know I‘m banging the drum for this place) we bought a bottle of 2017 from Aligro for CHF 170. Cheaper than anywhere I could find on Wine Searcher by quite a way. Sadly it was a gift for someone.

As you‘ve upped the price point a bit and appear to be a Bordeaux fan, my recommendations would be Pichon Comtesse Lalande and Les Forts de Latour (the second wine of Latour). At a more accessible price point and a bit of a leftfield choice is Argiolas Turriga from Sardinia.

A great place to find reasonably priced quality wine is the Denner online shop. They generally have a nice selection of cases of Bordeaux as some interesting Italians. It‘s looking a bit sparse now, but the Brancaia Ilatraia is good value.
https://www.denner.ch/de/shop/wein/b...75-050674.html
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Old 15.10.2021, 15:43
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Re: The Wine Thread

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I have never had a Swiss red that I thought was good or stood up to foreign competition at the same price point. This includes a range of Ticenese Merlots, the allegedly amazing Gantenbein Pinot Noir and various reds at caves ouvertes around Geneva and at wine fairs. I did have a nice Ticenese white merlot recently though. A small producer in Geneva also does a nice sweet red called Le Mutin.

https://www.lesvallieres.ch/vindet.asp?l=1&n=49&s=2
Totally right. Local wines are 20-50% more expensive than comparable ones from anywhere else. At the same time, does it matter? We pay 100+% in a restaurant to have the same bottle you can get in a shop and the wine is the same quality. I'd say that we're quite flexible with the quality-price criteria.
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Old 15.10.2021, 15:59
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Re: The Wine Thread

I hang my flag on Denner, they have a good selection of wines often at half price and sometimes they offer another 20% off the discounted prices.

This week they have three wines I really like at half price, all reds, flavourful. I have never tried their other 50% offers this week so can not recommend them.

https://www.denner.ch/de/aktionen/ar...dop-riserva-3/

https://www.denner.ch/de/aktionen/ar...bec-reserva-3/

https://www.denner.ch/de/aktionen/ar...lentino-dop-6/
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Old 15.10.2021, 16:08
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Totally right. Local wines are 20-50% more expensive than comparable ones from anywhere else. At the same time, does it matter? We pay 100+% in a restaurant to have the same bottle you can get in a shop and the wine is the same quality. I'd say that we're quite flexible with the quality-price criteria.
Going off topic… It‘s actually one of the main things that stops me eating out in gourmet restaurants in Switzerland on a regular basis. You are doing well to find restaurants that are only 2x mark up on wine. I completely get why the food costs more (inputs costs of ingredients, labour and rent), but I fundamentally disagree with paying 3x and more for a commodity.

But ceteris paribus why would you pay 20-50% more?
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Old 15.10.2021, 16:28
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Totally right. Local wines are 20-50% more expensive than comparable ones from anywhere else. At the same time, does it matter? We pay 100+% in a restaurant to have the same bottle you can get in a shop and the wine is the same quality. I'd say that we're quite flexible with the quality-price criteria.
I think the best Swiss red wine I've had was this one:

https://www.vinothekhauser.ch/produk...-blauburgunder

Not cheap at 24chf (although perhaps it can be had cheaper - we bought direct at the winery and I think it was a bit less) and was delicious...that was back in 2013 though, not sure how it fares now. Funnily enough, it was even delicious cold out of the fridge on the balcony on a warm day (don't ask).
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Old 15.10.2021, 16:30
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Re: The Wine Thread

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Going off topic… It‘s actually one of the main things that stops me eating out in gourmet restaurants in Switzerland on a regular basis. You are doing well to find restaurants that are only 2x mark up on wine. I completely get why the food costs more (inputs costs of ingredients, labour and rent), but I fundamentally disagree with paying 3x and more for a commodity.

But ceteris paribus why would you pay 20-50% more?
Because I turn off the internal homo oeconomicus for fresh food ingredients, beer and wine. I reserve it for other things.....which are off topic
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Old 15.10.2021, 17:00
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Re: The Wine Thread

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I think the best Swiss red wine I've had was this one:

https://www.vinothekhauser.ch/produk...-blauburgunder

Not cheap at 24chf (although perhaps it can be had cheaper - we bought direct at the winery and I think it was a bit less) and was delicious...that was back in 2013 though, not sure how it fares now. Funnily enough, it was even delicious cold out of the fridge on the balcony on a warm day (don't ask).

It's certainly not expensive !


A lot of the Pinot Noir from Grisons is hitting Chf 80.--/100.-- + per bottle, good, yes and worth while to taste, yes, BUT it is expensive.


There is a Pinot Noir from Neuchatel, Les Rissieux, impossible to find and when you do, costs around Chf 300 ++ per bottle. Once agian, it's good but not worth the price, bit like Massetto or Petrus, good but over priced !



White wine, try Completer variety from Grison, Roman Hermann is a producer, Chf 35-45.-- bottle.



Les Huttins from Geneva are a good bet, especially Syrah


Gilbert Devayes from Leytron/VS has a very interesting selection at prices under Chf 20.--



Sombody mentioned Alion earlier, this has just got too expensive for a mass produced wine. It is made by Vega Sicilia group which you find in one form or anothe rin every Spanish restaurant.



They have 4 principal wines,
Pintia Chf 60.--/ 65.--
Alion Chf 80.--/ 88.--

Valbuena Chf 140.--/150.--
Unico Chf 300.-- ++


As an alternative, look at Abadia Retuerta, it is the property that is neighbouring Vega, just outside the Ribera Duero appeleation so it is called Sardon de Duero, aboutr Chf 25.--bottle and it belongs to .....
Novartis !!
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