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Gastro Gnome · #1 19.03.2010, 14:04

On the bärlauch thread I read about fox tapeworm.

The scientidic name for these buggers is Echinococcus multicularis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinoc...multilocularis

It sounds terrifying as 94% of those infected die.

On the other hand between '82 and 2000 only 559 cases were reported in the whole of Europe. Road crash fatalities in Europe are in the many thousands per year . . . but no one suggests that people should stop driving.

The prevalence of tapeworm is known to have been increasing, but also campaigns are underway to treat foxes with anti-parasitic drugs.

So . . . something to worry about? Is washing foraged food adequate protection or do you have to cook any food to a certain temperature?

walterguariento · #2 19.03.2010, 14:13

there's plenty of nasty little buggers in foraged food.

My sweepingly generalizing suggestion? Stay away from it, the majority of food that can be foraged for can usually also be found in ethical or organic farms.

Now, of course, you have to go and find one of those...

Gastro Gnome · #3 19.03.2010, 14:17

	Quote:	walterguariento
	there's plenty of nasty little buggers in foraged food. My sweepingly generalizing suggestion? Stay away from it, the majority of food that can be foraged for can usually also be found in ethical or organic farms. Now, of course, you have to go and find one of those...

I think it would be fairly difficult to find some of the more unusual things.

Following on from the success of the Champignon Sauvage, many haute cuisine places in the UK started using foraged flora.

In addition isn't there the same risk from wild fungi, which are still popularly foraged? You certainly can't get all the fungi varieties from farms.

Danieluk · #4 19.03.2010, 14:19

Slightly off topic perhaps, but my mate swears but the Mars bar tapeworm diet:

Step 1. Consume tapeworm (they can come in pill form I'm told for the squeaish)

Step 2. Eat whatever you want

Step 3. Once the ideal weight has been reached, tempt worm out with Mars bar.

Sorry

walterguariento · #5 19.03.2010, 14:24

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	I think it would be fairly difficult to find some of the more unusual things. Following on from the success of the Champignon Sauvage, many haute cuisine places in the UK started using foraged flora. In addition isn't there the same risk from wild fungi, which are still popularly foraged? You certainly can't get all the fungi varieties from farms.

aw, dude, what's with the two of us on a Friday afternoon?? we should stop meeting this way...

I agree that foraged flora is very popular and that some wild fungi may be hard to come by in a farm, but it's a bit of a trade off and risk assessment, isn't it?

this gets compounded by the fact that we still know very little of what's out there and how is going to affect us (fox tapeworm go undetected a long time...), so I'll stick to my suggestion... if you are not sure and you are not willing to take risks, avoid it.

to your OP, washing it certainly good, but in regards on which temperature you should cook it to kill these fox tapeworms(and whether or not you'll kill the flavours in the process), I really don't know.

Any bacteriologist out there who care to join?

Gastro Gnome · #6 19.03.2010, 14:33

	Quote:	walterguariento
	aw, dude, what's with the two of us on a Friday afternoon?? we should stop meeting this way... I agree that foraged flora is very popular and that some wild fungi may be hard to come by in a farm, but it's a bit of a trade off and risk assessment, isn't it? this gets compounded by the fact that we still know very little of what's out there and how is going to affect us (fox tapeworm go undetected a long time...), so I'll stick to my suggestion... if you are not sure and you are not willing to take risks, avoid it. to your OP, washing it certainly good, but in regards on which temperature you should cook it to kill these fox tapeworms(and whether or not you'll kill the flavours in the process), I really don't know. Any bacteriologist out there who care to join?

Hey . . . we're only discussing the subject . . . there's nothing personal here, nor anything aggravating as far as I can tell!

My point is about the low level of the risk: <600 cases over twenty years is nothing. You're more likely to win the lottery!

Presumably restaurants serving this stuff have to assure the local environmental health people that it's safe?

I guess another point is that even if you can find, say, farmed nettles . . . what guarantee is there that a fox has sloped past for a quick whizz?

I don't know how complete my information is, but I'm surprised I've not seen any restaurants extensively using wild alpine flora . . . surely that's a fantastic terroir?

BeastOfBodmin · #7 19.03.2010, 14:35

Don't panic. This is Switzerland. Nothing bad ever happens to people here.

AE is the disease caused by the fox tapeworm.

How can I prevent AE?

	Quote:
	... If you live in an area where E. multilocularis is found in rodents and wild canines, take the following precautions to avoid infection: Don't touch a fox, coyote, or other wild canine, dead or alive, unless you are wearing gloves. Hunters and trappers should use plastic gloves to avoid exposure. Don't keep wild animals, especially wild canines, as pets or encourage them to come close to your home. Don't allow your cats and dogs to wander freely or to capture and eat rodents. If you think that your pet may have eaten rodents, consult your veterinarian about the possible need for preventive treatments. After handling pets, always wash your hands with soap and warm water. Fence in gardens to keep out wild animals. Do not collect or eat wild fruits or vegetables picked directly from the ground. All wild-picked foods should be washed carefully or cooked before eating.

walterguariento · #8 19.03.2010, 14:47

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	Hey . . . we're only discussing the subject . . . there's nothing personal here, nor anything aggravating as far as I can tell! My point is about the low level of the risk: <600 cases over twenty years is nothing. You're more likely to win the lottery! Presumably restaurants serving this stuff have to assure the local environmental health people that it's safe? I guess another point is that even if you can find, say, farmed nettles . . . what guarantee is there that a fox has sloped past for a quick whizz? I don't know how complete my information is, but I'm surprised I've not seen any restaurants extensively using wild alpine flora . . . surely that's a fantastic terroir?

hey, I'm sitting on the terrace drinking a spritz and enjoying the sunshine, I'm just messing with you

600 death for a single disease caught eating food is actually not that small of a number, and a lot of restaurateurs will get concerned by this figure.. fogu causes less deaths and I guess you know the stringent training a chef has to go through before being allowed to prepare it (at least until the non-poisonous variety catches on...), so the lack of wild food shouldn't really be surprising.

Tom73 · #9 19.03.2010, 14:57

	Quote:
	Don't panic. This is Switzerland. Nothing bad ever happens to people here.

Actually every year people die because of Fox tapeworm. 17 become infected every year in switzerland twice as much as 30years ago.

walterguariento · #10 19.03.2010, 14:59

	Quote:	Tom73
	Actually every year people die because of Fox tapeworm. 17 become infected every year in switzerland twice as much as 30years ago.

stop going to the wood patting foxes...

Gastro Gnome · #11 19.03.2010, 15:05

	Quote:	walterguariento
	hey, I'm sitting on the terrace drinking a spritz and enjoying the sunshine, I'm just messing with you 600 death for a single disease caught eating food is actually not that small of a number, and a lot of restaurateurs will get concerned by this figure.. fogu causes less deaths and I guess you know the stringent training a chef has to go through before being allowed to prepare it (at least until the non-poisonous variety catches on...), so the lack of wild food shouldn't really be surprising.

I don't think the comparison with fugu is a good one.

- Certain parts of fugu are definitely poisonous, it's a known risk
- The incidence rate in Japan is actually higher comparatively - according to wiki:

	Quote:
	Statistics from the Tokyo Bureau of Social Welfare and Public Health indicate 20 to 44 incidents of fugu poisoning per year between 1996 and 2006 in all of Japan, where a single incident may involve multiple diners

In addition, foraging is seen as relatively safe for amateurs and courses are offered in it, e.g.

http://www.wildmanwildfood.com/

Hell, even the BBC endorses it with people like Ray Mears and stuff like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bloom/actions/foraging.shtml

So . . . it looks like you just need to wash stuff that's picked at ground level.

Gastro Gnome · #12 19.03.2010, 15:08

	Quote:	Tom73
	Actually every year people die because of Fox tapeworm. 17 become infected every year in switzerland twice as much as 30years ago.

I wonder if anyone's done an epidemiological study.

It would be interesting to understand the vectors.

Do you have a reference for the stats?

Hmmm . . . looks like part of it could just be increased presence of the parasite in the fox population:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w60w4m187624gr6u/

More foxes in Switzerland too. This is an interesting and relevant paper:

http://cdc.gov/eid/content/13/6/878.htm

	Quote:
	We analyzed databases spanning 50 years, which included retrospective alveolar echinococcosis (AE) case-finding studies and databases of the 3 major centers for treatment of AE in Switzerland. A total of 494 cases were recorded. Annual incidence of AE per 100,000 population increased from 0.12–0.15 during 1956–1992 and a mean of 0.10 during 1993–2000 to a mean of 0.26 during 2001–2005. Because the clinical stage of the disease did not change between observation periods, this increase cannot be explained by improved diagnosis. Swiss hunting statistics suggested that the fox population increased 4-fold from 1980 through 1995 and has persisted at these higher levels. Because the period between infection and development of clinical disease is long, the increase in the fox population and high Echinococcus multilocularis prevalence rates in foxes in rural and urban areas may have resulted in an emerging epidemic of AE 10–15 years later.

Little_Polka · #13 19.03.2010, 15:09

Just wash propely your fruits & veggies (bio too

) and you will be fine.

Echinococcus is really dangerous, especially if it gets into the brain.

As far as the tapeworm goes...some topics/threads ago someone was asking about weirldy shaped toilets in CH...that design helps to observe any unusual "thingies"after use

including last segments of the tapeworm which are being removed when it grows

Gastro Gnome · #14 19.03.2010, 15:17

	Quote:	Little_Polka
	(bio too )

I generally do . . . but it's going to make nada difference with regard to tapeworm.

Little_Polka · #15 19.03.2010, 15:20

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	I generally do . . . but it's going to make nada difference with regard to tapeworm.

True

, was talking about Echinococcus. Thankfully I like well done meat so no tapeworm for me

plus I like garlic and that helps to prevent development of the egg in our intestins.

Gastro Gnome · #16 19.03.2010, 15:22

	Quote:	Little_Polka
	True , was talking about Echinococcus.

Yes . . . that's what we're talking about. Bio isn't going to reduce the incidence, maybe in fact the opposite . . .

walterguariento · #17 19.03.2010, 15:23

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	I don't think the comparison with fugu is a good one. - Certain parts of fugu are definitely poisonous, it's a known risk - The incidence rate in Japan is actually higher comparatively - according to wiki:

yeah, but you are comparing mortality rate from tapeworm to incident rate from fogu - different things... I haven't got the figures at hand, but on top of my head I'd be surprised if you have more than 1/2 dozen death by fogu per year. My point is that, despite the low mortality rate, restaurants go to extreme length (including, if memeory serves me well,a 3 year training for the chef who then have to prove their worth eating what they prepared...

, they better be good students...) to make sure it is safe when it gets on the plate (at the point that fogu is banned in a lot of countries), so I'm not surprised if much more "dangerous" foraged for food is avoided...

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome;746731 In addition, foraging is seen as relatively safe for amateurs and courses are offered in it, e.g. [URL
	http://www.wildmanwildfood.com/[/URL] Hell, even the BBC endorses it with people like Ray Mears and stuff like this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bloom/actions/foraging.shtml So . . . it looks like you just need to wash stuff that's picked at ground level.

I still wouldn't trust it much... I used to have a nettle bush in my garden for the times I wanted nettle soup

Is about risk assessment... would you rather take the risk or give up the porcini?

#18 19.03.2010, 15:24

EWWWWWW

Little_Polka · #19 19.03.2010, 15:27

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	Yes . . . that's what we're talking about. Bio isn't going to reduce the incidence, maybe in fact the opposite . . .

Hehe I totally forgot about this one, when someone says tapeworm I think about the Taenia species not about Echinoccocus

PS. had the "pleasure" to see those ones on my parasitology and zoology classes long time ago....disgusting

Gastro Gnome · #20 19.03.2010, 15:30

	Quote:	walterguariento
	I still wouldn't trust it much... I used to have a nettle bush in my garden for the times I wanted nettle soup Is about risk assessment... would you rather take the risk or give up the porcini?

And you can guarantee that no foxes have used your garden as a public convenience?

I'd never give up porcini!