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Old 03.05.2010, 12:15
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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At least it's not horrid coffee that you get in England or Ireland where they have no idea how to make a decent coffee- it's heartbreaking as it's twice the price as a good aussie coffee!
English coffee is deliberately made to taste unpleasant in order to discourage consumption of such foul foreign beverages, when one can enjoy a perfectly good cup of tea.

No need to ask for a "flat white" one of those...
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Old 03.05.2010, 12:16
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Schale is a coffee with milk in it, you can ask for hell which is light (more milk) or dunkel which is dark (less milk)

Kaffee creme is regular coffee, cream in a pot or jug separatly, ask for kaffee doppel creme for extra cream.

Kaffee natur is a black coffee, sometimes cheaper because you dont use any cream.
Mostly correct, but the "creme" in "kaffee creme" is not cream at all - it refers to those little bubbles on the top (crema in Italian.) I don't know what you would get if you asked for "Kaffee doppelcreme" but most likely a confused look.

Be careful with "hell" and "dunkel" as well. In some places that will get you a Schale with more or less milk, other places (e.g. the Spettacolo chain) it'll get you a different roast of coffee.
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Old 03.05.2010, 17:25
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

Scharle is what you are after! I have a good Aussie friend who had been trying to get the right "Flat White" and when I ordered a Scharle it was just what she had been looking for! Only problem that is a Swiss word so no idea what to order when you are in Germany!
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Old 03.05.2010, 18:19
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Scharle is what you are after! I have a good Aussie friend who had been trying to get the right "Flat White" and when I ordered a Scharle it was just what she had been looking for! Only problem that is a Swiss word so no idea what to order when you are in Germany!
Schale, not Scharle.

Othrwise, you'll end up with this

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Old 03.05.2010, 18:30
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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I knew it was an Australian thing
Oh dear! This thread is going the way of the Pavlova!!! I feel I have to step in and defend our country's honour...

Flat White: "Originating from New Zealand and invented by Regan Gilder"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_white
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Old 03.05.2010, 19:20
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Mostly correct, but the "creme" in "kaffee creme" ...
I love it when you talk nerdy to us

The creme is the little pot of cream. Crema is formed if the coffee has been well extracted, but on a typical schale - diluted espresso - one doesn't see much of it. On an espresso, one should be able to sit sugar on the crema for a few moments - much like a penny on the head of a pint of Guinness - before it falls through (if you take sugar, that is).

Diluted espresso with cream is what it says on the can.

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Old 03.05.2010, 19:36
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Oh dear! This thread is going the way of the Pavlova!!! I feel I have to step in and defend our country's honour...

Flat White: "Originating from New Zealand and invented by Regan Gilder"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_white
Oooooohhhhh, controversial ... there are heaps (is that an Australian invention?) of references that claim the flat white for Australia. And the pavlova.

And Split Enz, Dragon, Crowded House and OMC. You can keep Dave Dobbyn.
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Old 04.05.2010, 07:55
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Mostly correct, but the "creme" in "kaffee creme" is not cream at all - it refers to those little bubbles on the top (crema in Italian.) I don't know what you would get if you asked for "Kaffee doppelcreme" but most likely a confused look.

Be careful with "hell" and "dunkel" as well. In some places that will get you a Schale with more or less milk, other places (e.g. the Spettacolo chain) it'll get you a different roast of coffee.
As Uncle Max confirmed, the "creme" in kaffee creme does mean cream and should not be confused with the crema

Kaffee doppelcreme is a standard term used here to order more cream with the coffee. Try it, I'm sure you wont get confused looks, honest.

Schale hell and dunkel are also standard terms here, often used in swiss cafes or restaurants, which is what the OP was asking about. Most of these places wont have a a choice of different roasts of coffeebeans, maybe just normal and espresso. I agree about the different chains though. I am soon moving to the UK so look out for my "How do I order a normal coffee here in England, it's just so confusing!" thread.
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Old 04.05.2010, 08:41
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Oh dear! This thread is going the way of the Pavlova!!! I feel I have to step in and defend our country's honour...

Flat White: "Originating from New Zealand and invented by Regan Gilder"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_white
If NZ flat whites are as good as Oz flat whites then I don't care who invented it as long as I can get it! Even if it's called Schale. Thanks for that tip, I'm keen to try it.

Same as pavs, like them wherever they come from! Though as my yummy rolled pav recipe came from my friend in Melbourne, I'm definitely calling it an Aussie pavlova!

Last edited by pamela16; 04.05.2010 at 08:44. Reason: adding a bit
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Old 15.09.2011, 22:42
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

My wife and I did our honeymoon touring around Switzerland, and of all things, I fell in love with the basic coffee you can buy at any convenience store in Switzerland. They all seem to use the same automated machine. It was called "kaffee". The restaurant "kaffee" that I ordered always tasted about the same too. On the machine, I believe "expresso" and "cappucino" were also options but I always ordered "kaffee" which tasted way better than typical American drip coffees, even drip coffees that you can buy at coffee houses.

Does anyone know what Swiss convenience store "kaffee" would be called in the USA? If home brewing with a basic Krups expresso machine, do you have any suggestions on how to make it?

We live in New York. If you come here for a visit, I promise to show some New York gratitude and will help in any way I can.
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Old 15.09.2011, 22:58
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

Hope this doesn't make your brain explode, but it's probably an Americano!

(That's an espresso with hot water added to dilute it.)
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Old 15.09.2011, 23:40
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

Ha...yes it did occur to me that it was an Americano, and the irony of that did not escape me, being as it was far more common in Switzerland and a niche product in the US.

However, when I brew an expresso on my Krups machine and add some water, it just tastes crappy. I haven't gotten around to freshly grinding my beans (I'm a bit lazy), so I know that will improve the flavor, but I'm not even in the ballpark. Is it possible the pregrinded beans will really make it this bad? Is there any other secret sauce in kaffee?
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Old 15.09.2011, 23:48
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

Grinding the beans just before you use them is one of those things that people who do it will swear blind that the coffee is so much better. I don't believe it is that much better. What is improved is the aroma, and also that lovely aroma you get from the grounds before you even use them.

If an Americano isn't what you're getting then it's likely to be what us Brits just call "instant coffee". I really don't know if you have that in America - it's freeze dried granules that you add (just off) boiling water to.
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Old 15.09.2011, 23:49
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

This thread is hilarious!!
Schale, chalet, Schorle - flat white but foamy, Americanos.....blue jeans and chinos.....

It's easier in England; a flat white is usually a lukewarm instant Nescafe in a chipped, lipstick-stained mug with a dash of cold milk. Delicious!!
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Old 16.09.2011, 00:20
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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My wife and I did our honeymoon touring around Switzerland, and of all things, I fell in love with the basic coffee you can buy at any convenience store in Switzerland. They all seem to use the same automated machine. It was called "kaffee". The restaurant "kaffee" that I ordered always tasted about the same too. On the machine, I believe "expresso" and "cappucino" were also options but I always ordered "kaffee" which tasted way better than typical American drip coffees, even drip coffees that you can buy at coffee houses.

Does anyone know what Swiss convenience store "kaffee" would be called in the USA? If home brewing with a basic Krups expresso machine, do you have any suggestions on how to make it?
Probably the nearest you'd get to it is Coffee Crema beans.

Although the same beans are used as for espresso, the roast is not so intense and the grind is a fraction less fine, thus allowing more water through.

These are the roasted beans used for a Kaffee Creme in Switzerland. The beans are available.

Here is an example in Switzerland
(though personally, I can't stand Tchibo coffee)

Here's another from Movenpick.

So, if I were you, I'd search for Cafe Crema beans and try those.
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Old 16.09.2011, 01:23
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Ha...yes it did occur to me that it was an Americano, and the irony of that did not escape me, being as it was far more common in Switzerland and a niche product in the US.

However, when I brew an expresso on my Krups machine and add some water, it just tastes crappy. I haven't gotten around to freshly grinding my beans (I'm a bit lazy), so I know that will improve the flavor, but I'm not even in the ballpark. Is it possible the pregrinded beans will really make it this bad? Is there any other secret sauce in kaffee?
The difference is probably just the coffee beans and the fact that in Europe it's always made stronger than it is in the US.

Try adding a bit more coffee in the first pulled expresso before you add the hot water. But while you are in Switzerland go to the super market and buy some of the coffees they have there for sale. The US beans are roasted differently and Starbucks burns them (most of the time).

Summary, in my mind it's European coffee is roasted differently & in the US the suggested measure of coffee used to make your espresso is not enough.

(But I'm no barrista! )
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Old 16.09.2011, 05:22
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Ha...yes it did occur to me that it was an Americano, and the irony of that did not escape me, being as it was far more common in Switzerland and a niche product in the US.

However, when I brew an expresso on my Krups machine and add some water, it just tastes crappy. I haven't gotten around to freshly grinding my beans (I'm a bit lazy), so I know that will improve the flavor, but I'm not even in the ballpark. Is it possible the pregrinded beans will really make it this bad? Is there any other secret sauce in kaffee?
There are a few basic rules to good coffee, in order of importance:
  • fresh beans. This means up to 2 weeks post-roasting. After 2 weeks there's a steep decline in quality and flavor. The beans in the hoppers in your grocery store are definitely older than this, and are generally poorly roasted as well. In the U.S. you can easily Google up a local roaster who sells beans with a roasted-on date rather than an expiration date.
  • freshly ground beans. Beans lose their flavor rapidly after grinding; after 30 seconds a good palate can taste it, after 2 hours any palate can taste it. The grinder is also important- the blade grinders one finds for cheap will make a horrible mix of fine dust and large particles. The fine dust will be overextracted, and they are impossible to use for espresso due to the inconsistency of grind. A proper burr grinder is necessary, whether electric or hand powered (yes, those antique grinders you see in flea markets really do work, and often outperform electric grinders costing many hundreds of dollars).
  • last is technique. Espresso needs, by definition, a fine grind through which water is forced at a pressure of ~9 bars, taking around 20-30 seconds for brewing. The cheaper Krupps machines are steam powered and don't get anywhere close to that pressure- they are essentially fancy looking mocca pots (think Bialetti). So don't expect a real espresso from one. Lower end pump machines usually are only marginally better, with large temperature swings and other issues. But- big BUT, that's not to say that you can't get something good in your cup from a steam powered Bialetti type maker or whatever; it just won't be a true espresso.
You probably noticed that even on most gas station machines here there is a hopper with beans on top of the machines. When you hit the button it grinds the beans and makes you coffee about a millisecond later. The beans are furnished by the machine supplier and are relplinished often, so are pretty fresh. That's what you're tasting.

There are many many ways to make coffee, Turkish, drip, press, mocca, espresso, vacuum pot, and more. If the beans are from a good roaster, are reasonably fresh, and are ground just prior to use you will almost certainly get a cup of coffee that is excellent from any of them. You will get a much better cup from a simple Melita filter using good beans ground in a good grinder than from a $6000 La Marzocco espresso machine using old/poorly roasted beans ground in a blade grinder.
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  #38  
Old 16.09.2011, 09:29
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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can't quite take espresso
Don't worry, "real" espresso doesn't exist north of the Alps!

(and is already hard enough to find around here , thank god I'm going to Italy for the weekend and can get some decent stuff!)

Tom
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Old 16.09.2011, 09:32
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Does anyone know what Swiss convenience store "kaffee" would be called in the USA?
Nescafe (instant).

Tom
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Old 16.09.2011, 09:49
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Re: Coffee: flat white?

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Ha...yes it did occur to me that it was an Americano, and the irony of that did not escape me, being as it was far more common in Switzerland and a niche product in the US.

However, when I brew an expresso on my Krups machine and add some water, it just tastes crappy. I haven't gotten around to freshly grinding my beans (I'm a bit lazy), so I know that will improve the flavor, but I'm not even in the ballpark. Is it possible the pregrinded beans will really make it this bad? Is there any other secret sauce in kaffee?
Try whole foods / trader Joe's or World Market for european coffee beans!
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