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View Poll Results: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?
Yes 74 52.86%
No 66 47.14%
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  #141  
Old 29.10.2010, 22:31
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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besides most youngsters are vegetarians anyway.

seriously???
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  #142  
Old 29.10.2010, 22:32
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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most youngsters are vegetarians anyway.
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  #143  
Old 29.10.2010, 22:32
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Anyone with a child would know that the words "child" "force" and "eat" do not belong in the same sentence unless they add the words "asparagus" "spit" and "carpet"...
OK . . . instead off forcing I mean bringing up a child with a certain diet, either omnivorous or vegetarian.
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  #144  
Old 29.10.2010, 22:40
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Nicky, this is a discussion on the merits or otherwise of a certain position, much like others on the forum and no one is being (that) hostile to anyone else. As you can see from the poll, the opinions are divided, but neither opinion is "out of order" nor really the way that the majority have expressed. Kudos to PhilMCR for starting this new thread rather than killing the other one, or your point would have been well made. Since the poll is rather even, it's not that helpful for you to respond to Phil and others' well meaning/made points with "are you kidding" or similar. I don't believe that it's the worst thing in the world to be vegetarian, many of my family are. But if it's shown that vegetarianism is marginally less healthy than omnivorism then bringing up a child to be vegetarian is de facto child cruelty on a low level, just like giving a child loads of chocolate every day or 6 hours of television.

It may not be. It may be that vegetarianism is just as healthy or even healthier. And that's part of the discussion. I don't see much hostility towards vegetarians beyond the above contention.
a discussion which suggests child abuse for not feeding your kid meat and a discussion where LanaK for example as a vegetarian is asked to defend her choice for being vegetarian. If the topic was generic, 'is it good or bad' fair enough, interesting topic to a degree - but there has been a fair bit of vegetarian bashing and the sensationalist 'child abuse' claims. This for me is verging on ridiculous, we can agree to disagree
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  #145  
Old 29.10.2010, 22:40
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

When we have children, we're only going to eat meat we've raised ourselves, which, given the size of our flat, is likely to mean a diet of rabbits, gerbils and guinea pigs. The children, after a short tutorial session on the subject, will be expected to slaughter and dress their pets food themselves, although we may help with the preparation of sauces, salting and so on. Should we move to the country, we shall keep pigs, chickens and sheep, and maintain our own slaughterhouse in the cellar.

We may occasionally eat vegetables, although we shall be certain to educate the children about the appalling conditions under which agricultural labourers are expected to work, so that they really understand the value of their food.

I haven't spoken to my wife about this yet, but I'm sure she'll be in full agreement, as long as there are firearms involved at some point. You know what these Americans are like...

En guete!
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  #146  
Old 29.10.2010, 23:13
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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When we have children, we're only going to eat meat we've raised ourselves, which, given the size of our flat, is likely to mean a diet of rabbits, gerbils and guinea pigs. The children, after a short tutorial session on the subject, will be expected to slaughter and dress their pets food themselves, although we may help with the preparation of sauces, salting and so on. Should we move to the country, we shall keep pigs, chickens and sheep, and maintain our own slaughterhouse in the cellar.

We may occasionally eat vegetables, although we shall be certain to educate the children about the appalling conditions under which agricultural labourers are expected to work, so that they really understand the value of their food.



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  #147  
Old 29.10.2010, 23:15
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Do you live next door to Penelope Keith?
You're stalking us, aren't you?

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  #148  
Old 30.10.2010, 00:27
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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a discussion where LanaK for example as a vegetarian is asked to defend her choice for being vegetarian.
She was only asked to defend her choices in a thread about her choices. It's not like it happened over a pint, it was pretty much on topic. It got slightly heated because her answers didn't seem to make much sense but again this isn't any different to justifying a view or lifestyle choice of any other sort.

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the sensationalist 'child abuse' claims.
The "child abuse" claim are definitely pretty sensationalist, but again I really don't believe anyone was implying that it was really serious child abuse. But there is a strong cohort of educated people in the USA and UK who believe raising a child to be religious is child abuse (I am not stating my view either way on this topic). So while you may not agree with vegetarianism as child abuse, it's not a ridiculous assertion, just one that you don't agree with.

Perhaps it's analogous to instructing a child that all foods beginning with vowels are not to be eaten (Apples are forbidden, pears are perfectly fine). Now this is surely a healthier diet than vegetarianism because you can get a good spread of food with all the right nutrients. But is such an arbitrary management of a child's life choices fair?
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  #149  
Old 30.10.2010, 00:57
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Perhaps it's analogous to instructing a child that all foods beginning with vowels are not to be eaten (Apples are forbidden, pears are perfectly fine). Now this is surely a healthier diet than vegetarianism because you can get a good spread of food with all the right nutrients. But is such an arbitrary management of a child's life choices fair?
an interesting point.

just to clarify, when i say child abuse, i mean an action that causes a child harm without the intention that the action will be for the benefit of the child.

so for example, on the face of it, smacking a child is 'child abuse' but i can accept that a parent may chose to use smacking and believe that by employing smacking as a punishment, the child will benefit from the discipline in the future.

applying this standard to the issue at hand:

1. is there harm to a child?

there are a few different arguments here. obviously, there is the point on nuitrition and physical development. as i am not an expert in this area, i am happy to concede that it may well be possible for a child to be just as heathy on a vegetarian diet. although if this is not the case, then there could obviously be some form of harm and impeded physical development at a young age.

the second form of harm is the denying the child the enjoyment of actually eating meat and potentially also the reduction in experiences contributing to the childs mental development. one might of course argue that this is a minor amount of harm.

2. is the action for the benefit of the child?

here, i struggle and perhaps vegetarians can offer something. but i don't see any real benefits to the child.

i can of course see benefits to the animals concerned and can understand those who hold the view that the lives of animals are as valuable as those of humans and thus on balance the minor harm done to a child is outweighed by the greater good afforded to the animals.
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  #150  
Old 30.10.2010, 00:57
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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The "child abuse" claim are definitely pretty sensationalist, but again I really don't believe anyone was implying that it was really serious child abuse. But there is a strong cohort of educated people in the USA and UK who believe raising a child to be religious is child abuse (I am not stating my view either way on this topic). So while you may not agree with vegetarianism as child abuse, it's not a ridiculous assertion, just one that you don't agree with.
Is sensationalism not ridiculous?

The claim about religion is silly and so is this dietary one.
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Old 30.10.2010, 01:02
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Is sensationalism not ridiculous?
It could be I suppose but I don't think that was the point.

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The claim about religion is silly and so is this dietary one.
No, neither are "silly". It's a matter of degree.
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  #152  
Old 30.10.2010, 01:08
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

Just to throw something else into the pot...

There was a big hoo-ha in England last year about a teacher who encouraged the children in her class to raise a sheep, then get it slaughtered and served up in order to show where meat comes from. I thought it was a brilliant idea, but apparently some of the parents of the children disagreed.

Now, I grew up in and around slaughterhouses. Dead and dismembered animals were part of my everyday life growing up, and didn't worry me in the slightest. I knew the meat on my plate came from an animal identical to that big pink, dripping, staring thing hanging up on a hook, and I was fine with that. I didn't know any different.

Since then, however, I have met many children who have never made the connection between dead animals and dinner.

Do you think that children should be obliged to understand where meat comes from, or is it better to shield them from the reality until they are old enough to not be upset by the experience (and how old would they have to be, anyway?).

I think it's a splendid idea to take children to farms and slaughterhouses, but I suspect I might be in a minority on that score.

What do you think?

(I hope this isn't entirely off topic)
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Old 30.10.2010, 01:11
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Just to throw something else into the pot...

There was a big hoo-ha in England last year about a teacher who encouraged the children in her class to raise a sheep, then get it slaughtered and served up in order to show where meat comes from. I thought it was a brilliant idea, but apparently some of the parents of the children disagreed.

Now, I grew up in and around slaughterhouses. Dead and dismembered animals were part of my everyday life growing up, and didn't worry me in the slightest. I knew the meat on my plate came from an animal identical to that big pink, dripping, staring thing hanging up on a hook, and I was fine with that. I didn't know any different.

Since then, however, I have met many children who have never made the connection between dead animals and dinner.

Do you think that children should be obliged to understand where meat comes from, or is it better to shield them from the reality until they are old enough to not be upset by the experience (and how old would they have to be, anyway?).

I think it's a splendid idea to take children to farms and slaughterhouses, but I suspect I might be in a minority on that score.

What do you think?

(I hope this isn't entirely off topic)
I would insist on my child learning about this as well. Whatever your choices in life, hypocrisy should always be avoided and if you're too squeamish to observe the slaughter then you're too squeamish to benefit from it. I also feel it's important for children to grow their own vegetables, to learn about different flavours, how to grow, harvest and cook. If a child isn't into slaughter then he/she can be a vegetarian and I would support that choice.
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  #154  
Old 30.10.2010, 01:13
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Just to throw something else into the pot...

There was a big hoo-ha in England last year about a teacher who encouraged the children in her class to raise a sheep, then get it slaughtered and served up in order to show where meat comes from. I thought it was a brilliant idea, but apparently some of the parents of the children disagreed.

Now, I grew up in and around slaughterhouses. Dead and dismembered animals were part of my everyday life growing up, and didn't worry me in the slightest. I knew the meat on my plate came from an animal identical to that big pink, dripping, staring thing hanging up on a hook, and I was fine with that. I didn't know any different.

Since then, however, I have met many children who have never made the connection between dead animals and dinner.

Do you think that children should be obliged to understand where meat comes from, or is it better to shield them from the reality until they are old enough to not be upset by the experience (and how old would they have to be, anyway?).

I think it's a splendid idea to take children to farms and slaughterhouses, but I suspect I might be in a minority on that score.

What do you think?

(I hope this isn't entirely off topic)
yes, i think it would be a good idea for people to know how their food is produced. this will also help them make informed decisions about their food choices.

don't kids already do something like this? i do recall being a kid and being taken to a farm on a school trip to learn about food and being shown cows and the milking machine etc.

i really applaud the head teacher in the film clip. what an amazing teacher. i think the kids would really benefit from the experience. i liked the comment at the end about using the money to buy a pig to make sausages!
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  #155  
Old 30.10.2010, 01:16
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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don't kids already do something like this? i do recall being a kid and being taken to a farm on a school trip to learn about food and being shown cows and the milking machine etc.
Indeed... but there's a slightly moister stage in between fluffy milk cow and juicy beefburger that's missing in that picture.
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  #156  
Old 30.10.2010, 01:21
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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I would insist on my child learning about this as well. Whatever your choices in life, hypocrisy should always be avoided and if you're too squeamish to observe the slaughter then you're too squeamish to benefit from it. I also feel it's important for children to grow their own vegetables, to learn about different flavours, how to grow, harvest and cook. If a child isn't into slaughter then he/she can be a vegetarian and I would support that choice.
you could do something similar to what the head teacher is doing on a small scale by keeping chickens. you can get eggs from them and also slaughter for meat.
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Old 30.10.2010, 01:30
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

Re the innitial idea..I think abuse is a word too strong. Would I do it to my child? Nope. I was a vegetarian for a good few years, vegan for another few, and honestly, despite the inhuman efforts to meet all the nutritional needs, my body wasn't cut for it. It has troubles metabolising chemical calcium, so my teeth went see-through, bone density minimal, etc etc. Of course I felt almighty holy, all that restriction, I wouldn't preach to anyone, though, I so disliked the holy preachers. I do believe that our bodies can use the best only the most natural, non chemical nutrition, ie protein most efficient and "loaded" is animal protein, too much celulose if one sprouts beans etc is too hard on my guts, non dairy diet forces one to pop a lot of supplements. So, to assume my baby's body is cut for this diet better than mine is quite naieve, and why would I want to experiment just to find out a few years later we have exposed her to serious consequences, all because of some believes over other creatures rights...I think veggie diet is as suitable for us as other restrictive diets, that means loads of people benefit but some don't at all. We all are different. In the meantime, before I figure out what type of diet really suits my child, I will stick to moderacy in everything, no chemical stuff, no extremes (soy sucks, carcinogenic, too much dry puls foods expose people to toxins as well since they are often not dried properly, molds, etc, only veggie diets exposes people to fertilizers and other chemicals). A mix of all actually ensures that she won't have some excess of one type of evil. So, I wouldn't ever do it. I think to put a child on restrictive diet (I think vegetarianism is restrictive) until it can decide is not fair. I did meet a loads of hostile animal rights fighters, vegetarians and vegans, so to say people only attack them is nonsense. Quite a few I met deserved to have their pretentious arguments picked apart, in fact. I don't feel qualified enough to do so, just base my point of actually being vegetarian and vegan for long and growing out of it. My only Indian friends are vegetarians and feed their little kids meat for the same reasons I do.
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Old 30.10.2010, 01:56
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

I forgot to add about fruitarians/raw food eaters and other fun cults...While it is an interesting quest, mainly to train will power (and be high on it, to be honest that's what I often saw), it seems observing friends who were into extremities, it seemed rather detrimental to their health, and they were grown up. I also know, kids being on restrictive diets at the most important years show different (well, some do) results than an edgy teenager like me who likes to venture out of her comfort zone for higher, ethical reasons for a few years, while her body is (semi)done already. Even being a veg as a teen I still feel the consequences. I also think women and men feel consequences differently, too, apart from all of us being responsive in different degree...I had some metabolism quirkiness, too, which could have been linked, prego troubles, hormonal stuff related to protein intake (not enough in order to create a solid anti stress defense system) my bone density is probably pretty shot now, teeth got killed when pregnant, all these things are at a risk when one goes into an extreme..So, raw food eating and fruitarianism can be fun, especially if you are sharing it with somebody, but now, I love my meat, love cooking and serving all these bad things, too. Still, like to think about these issues, one shouldn't be ignoring them at all, but don't think personal sacrifice resulting in damaged health changes the planet for our kids..
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Old 30.10.2010, 13:32
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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Just to throw something else into the pot...

There was a big hoo-ha in England last year about a teacher who encouraged the children in her class to raise a sheep, then get it slaughtered and served up in order to show where meat comes from. I thought it was a brilliant idea, but apparently some of the parents of the children disagreed.

Now, I grew up in and around slaughterhouses. Dead and dismembered animals were part of my everyday life growing up, and didn't worry me in the slightest. I knew the meat on my plate came from an animal identical to that big pink, dripping, staring thing hanging up on a hook, and I was fine with that. I didn't know any different.

Since then, however, I have met many children who have never made the connection between dead animals and dinner.

Do you think that children should be obliged to understand where meat comes from, or is it better to shield them from the reality until they are old enough to not be upset by the experience (and how old would they have to be, anyway?).

I think it's a splendid idea to take children to farms and slaughterhouses, but I suspect I might be in a minority on that score.

What do you think?

(I hope this isn't entirely off topic)

Excellent point sir. Most kids don't know the difference between an aubergine and an parsnip these days either - it's not just meat that British kids are ignorant about.

From what Jamie Oliver's shown us the same is not true in Italy. What about Switzerland?
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Old 30.10.2010, 13:58
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Re: Is raising children as vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians a form of child abuse?

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From what Jamie Oliver's shown us the same is not true in Italy. What about Switzerland?
In my experience, it's not much different from the situation in Britain. I suspect urban children here see livestock a little more frequently than their British counterparts, but I doubt they get to see the animals in the stickier and runnier stages of their evolution to shrink wrapped Migros specials any more often than a child from Newcastle or Swindon.

Perhaps we could encourage slaughterhouses to install big windows next to the pavements that pass their establishments?
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