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  #21  
Old 31.01.2011, 13:09
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

Will the advertisers have to have more than 10 posts and 7 days membership before posting an ad?
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  #22  
Old 31.01.2011, 13:10
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

A suggestion - the account that posts these ads should have a clear identity such as "EF Advertising", rather than using the same ID that's used for posting announcements, admin, etc.
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  #23  
Old 31.01.2011, 13:12
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

Yes, evilshell, I've already asked Editor Bob to address this issue. I think using the User name 'English Forum Switzerland' as the herald of tragedy and items of a commercial nature is inappropriate.

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Old 31.01.2011, 13:20
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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Maybe in the opinion of ordinary members on here, there should be a 'right' to advertise for free both in ordinary Ads and in the Commercial section. Whether the writer of these free Ads all 'enhance' the community or not is another question. For this Mod at least, the Ads, often put in by members who have no other interest in the Forum, make a load of work and little fun. When the posters don't bother to read the rules, or, if they read them, don't stick to them, they are a pain in the neck too.

If the guys and gals with Commercial Ads on here really care about EF and other members, they'll probably find that folk recommending them or asking questions will keep their Ads 'alive' without payment. They can post in their own Thread if they have something valid to say or new Info to add. It is accepted that contented customers post on here and whether they were prompted or not, the Mods neither know nor care. See Grumpygrapefruit!

Somehow EF has to get some money. Someone, somewhere, has to cope with updates, server problems and loads of things I don't even pretend to understand. I don't think any of us like it much, but there are now Ads. I think it's good that members keep an eye on these innovations, but like King Canute, we are going to get wet feet whether we like it or not.
My point below is that I can see a time when all posts in Commercial will have to be paid for.

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And how long will it be before all posts in Commercial are paid only. The way this forum is going I will be long gone before that happens.
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As a Mod I can't force people to remove their groans - would be nice of them though. This is a quarrel with forum/management policy, right? Why take it out on some hapless advertiser?


As for transparency and endorsement issues: EF does not endorse any of its Marketplace advertisers, commercial or private. Had we allowed Mr. Knecht to post a thread under his own username, and then elevated it to sticky without an explanation, that would indeed have looked very much like an endorsement - which is why we didn't do that.

As it stands, we are not endorsing the guy: we are publishing his paid advertisement, in the format paid for, under a username clearly marked for that purpose. While I can understand the resentment, I do think we've made that as clear as we reasonably can.
I don't think the groans were directed at the driving school (mine certainly wasn't) but at the Forum Management who placed the ad.
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Old 31.01.2011, 13:23
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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As a Mod I can't force people to remove their groans - would be nice of them though. This is a quarrel with forum/management policy, right? Why take it out on some hapless advertiser?


As for transparency and endorsement issues: EF does not endorse any of its Marketplace advertisers, commercial or private. Had we allowed Mr. Knecht to post a thread under his own username, and then elevated it to sticky without an explanation, that would indeed have looked very much like an endorsement - which is why we didn't do that.

As it stands, we are not endorsing the guy: we are publishing his paid advertisement, in the format paid for, under a username clearly marked for that purpose. While I can understand the resentment, I do think we've made that as clear as we reasonably can.
Indeed, but the EF posted the ad, not the advertiser as it stands, so if people aren't happy with the ad, and they groan it is then that is the way it is, no? The "hapless advertiser" should maybe have ensured that his ad was going to be presented in a way that it would get the positive out come he was hoping for, maybe in his own name, maybe in a section clearly marked as a paid ad, with the sticky, but this methods looks as though it came from the EF, which to many people could be construed as endorsement.

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Yes, evilshell, I've already asked Editor Bob to address this issue. I think using the User name 'English Forum Switzerland' as the herald of tragedy and items of a commercial nature is inappropriate.

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Indeed, more than a little insensitive, and again it reinforces a possible endorsement link when it's something so personal to the forum, well done for raising that point UM.
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  #26  
Old 31.01.2011, 13:25
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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As a Mod I can't force people to remove their groans - would be nice of them though. This is a quarrel with forum/management policy, right? Why take it out on some hapless advertiser?
ef-sponsoring-ads-groan.jpg

Nobody's groaning the advertiser.
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  #27  
Old 31.01.2011, 13:26
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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Somehow EF has to get some money. Someone, somewhere, has to cope with updates, server problems and loads of things I don't even pretend to understand. I don't think any of us like it much, but there are now Ads. I think it's good that members keep an eye on these innovations, but like King Canute, we are going to get wet feet whether we like it or not.
Thats the really disappointing thing though, its not about making enough money to survive. The cost of a forum like this currently ? vBulletin: 250 USD and was already paid for when it was handed over. Server hosting ? It's free with Amazoon for a server size that would be required to run this forum. After 1 year it would become around 10-30 USD per month depending on usage. Despite what it may sound like I am not complaining bitterly, it's happening like we said it would happen eventually. Whats so annoying is the brazenness of not even communicating the changes to the users of this forum, which are its lifeblood. The poor old moderators are stuck in the middle.

Make no mistake though: the adverts on this website will far exceed its running costs.
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  #28  
Old 31.01.2011, 13:57
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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Countdown, 10, 9, 8......
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I don't think the groans were directed at the driving school (mine certainly wasn't) but at the Forum Management who placed the ad.
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Attachment 22989

Nobody's groaning the advertiser.
We all know that these groans are not directed at the advertiser, but would all members? What if someone had an issue with the advertiser and added a groan? There needs to be some tweaking to take account of this.

Having a separate identity, rather than the admin one, would help.

It would be good to get an undertaking that non-libellous threads relating to an advertiser's service (good or bad) will not be deleted. Sharing experiences is one of the fundamentals that makes the forum what it is.

I am not suggesting removal of the thanks/groans facility in general.
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Old 31.01.2011, 14:04
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

The very first time that account was used was to announce the death of Mark. The fact it is now used for advertising does not sit well with me so I thank you for brining this inappropriatness to the attention of EB.

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Yes, evilshell, I've already asked Editor Bob to address this issue. I think using the User name 'English Forum Switzerland' as the herald of tragedy and items of a commercial nature is inappropriate.

Mourning the loss of a friend, a leader, an innovator, a genuinely nice guy
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  #30  
Old 31.01.2011, 14:09
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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We all know that these groans are not directed at the advertiser, but would all members? What if someone had an issue with the advertiser and added a groan? There needs to be some tweaking to take account of this.
Eh? So? If someone had a problem with the advertiser, it should be allowed to say so... Or that will be against the EF rules?
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  #31  
Old 31.01.2011, 14:11
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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The very first time that account was used was to announce the death of Mark. The fact it is now used for advertising does not sit well with me so I thank you for brining this inappropriatness to the attention of EB.
Especially with all those red blobs now to the top right of the announcement
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  #32  
Old 31.01.2011, 14:22
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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Eh? So? If someone had a problem with the advertiser, it should be allowed to say so... Or that will be against the EF rules?
Exactly my point. At present there are six groans and three red rep points. There is nothing there to show that this is not a reflection on the advertiser's service.

Having a thread that could have a mixture of thanks/groans/rep for the advertiser and EF is bound to lead to confusion.

If I were the advertiser, I would currently be rethinking if I had made the right decision.
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Old 31.01.2011, 14:28
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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... At present there are six groans and three red rep points. There is nothing there to show that this is not a reflection on the advertiser's service.
...
If I were the advertiser, I would currently be rethinking if I had made the right decision.
So groaning and bad repping such advertising might lead to it being a failure? So it would prevent more of it appearing, and be like a protest.... Hmm, thinks...
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  #34  
Old 31.01.2011, 14:34
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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So groaning and bad repping such advertising might lead to it being a failure? So it would prevent more of it appearing, and be like a protest.... Hmm, thinks...
I didn't say that
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Old 31.01.2011, 14:50
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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Eh? So? If someone had a problem with the advertiser, it should be allowed to say so... Or that will be against the EF rules?
As far as I know it is still fair game to criticize companies who advertise on EF, paid or unpaid. (As always, please stick to facts or personal experience, avoid libel, etc.)

Like I said, I haven't seen the text of the actual advertising contract, so I can't be 100% sure what was promised - that's why I couldn't give an authoritative answer earlier (and still can't.) I thoroughly expect that's still the case though.

If and when it becomes an issue*, we will have to get clarification from The Local... until then, I will mod by the rules I know.

Is that satisfactory? It's the best I can do right now.


*To be honest, the vast majority of advertisements in this section never attract any feedback, positive or negative. (Inquiries yes, feedback rarely ever.) In fact when I do see feedback from a 'satisfied customer', my first impulse as a mod is to check the IP address!
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Old 31.01.2011, 14:58
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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As far as I know it is still fair game to criticize companies who advertise on EF, paid or unpaid. (As always, please stick to facts or personal experience, avoid libel, etc.)

Like I said, I haven't seen the text of the actual advertising contract, so I can't be 100% sure what was promised - that's why I couldn't give an authoritative answer earlier (and still can't.) I thoroughly expect that's still the case though.

If and when it becomes an issue*, we will have to get clarification from The Local... until then, I will mod by the rules I know.

Is that satisfactory? It's the best I can do right now.


*To be honest, the vast majority of advertisements in this section never attract any feedback, positive or negative. (Inquiries yes, feedback rarely ever.) In fact when I do see feedback from a 'satisfied customer', my first impulse as a mod is to check the IP address!
You are great to answer all questions! Thanks for the time you take! Especially not an easy position for you!

You do it gracefully!
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  #37  
Old 31.01.2011, 15:04
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

Create a new sub-group or whatever and call it "Paid Adverts" where people who have paid are allowed to either register and post an ad, or have one posted there on their behalf.

Don't allow ANY repllies on that group; it should just consist of a string of paid adverts. Anyone paying a premium can have theirs a sticky at the top.

Have another group or sub-group or whatever it's called named "Discussion on paid adverts" where people can post their comments: good, bad, ugly.
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  #38  
Old 31.01.2011, 16:37
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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As far as I know it is still fair game to criticize companies who advertise on EF, paid or unpaid. (As always, please stick to facts or personal experience, avoid libel, etc.)

Like I said, I haven't seen the text of the actual advertising contract, so I can't be 100% sure what was promised - that's why I couldn't give an authoritative answer earlier (and still can't.) I thoroughly expect that's still the case though.

If and when it becomes an issue*, we will have to get clarification from The Local... until then, I will mod by the rules I know.

Is that satisfactory? It's the best I can do right now.


*To be honest, the vast majority of advertisements in this section never attract any feedback, positive or negative. (Inquiries yes, feedback rarely ever.) In fact when I do see feedback from a 'satisfied customer', my first impulse as a mod is to check the IP address!
....Breaking News....

I can confirm that this policy hasn't changed a bit.

In particular, negative feedback about an EF advertiser - including feedback on the same thread as a paid advertisement - is definitely allowed, provided as always that it is genuine, reasonable and on-topic.

So there you have it. Sensible criticism allowed, no matter who it is; daft, dodgy and demented railings liable to be deleted at the mods' discretion. (There, don't say I didn't warn you. )
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  #39  
Old 31.01.2011, 16:41
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

Name:  efa.jpg
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Thank you.

Groan removed.


See. The occasional peaceful protest works.
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Old 31.01.2011, 16:43
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Re: Is the EF sponsoring ads

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Groaned at 4,294,967,295 Times in 0 Posts
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this post too short
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