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  #61  
Old 22.02.2011, 00:54
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

EB has given a reply, presumably with the knowledge/approval of The Local

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We've had no legal troubles with the advert, nor do we expect any. We don't intend to pull the ad.
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  #62  
Old 22.02.2011, 01:15
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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If I was running a company like the local, I would very much expect my employees to raise a point like this to me if it pops up. After all is it potentially a business risk (I was not making this up when I said you get a one year prison sentence for it in Germany). And I would - after researching it and making a decision - give the appropriate feedback to the forum. I personally think it should be something like a "thanks for the heads-up", but even a "we had a look and believe it is safe to continue the advertisement" would be ok.
EB did post a clear reply to your question.
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We've had no legal troubles with the advert, nor do we expect any. We don't intend to pull the ad.
("We" being The Local)
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He is the one running this website and if I have a feedback on his changes to the forum
You are still totally misunderstanding his role on this forum, he's our IT guy, he can't make any policy changes. He gets paid to maintain the forum, if you want changes you need to go to the people who employ him (The Local).

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Please let us know if your opinion is personal or if you are writing here on behalf of the mod team. So I know what to do with future suggestions...
Opinion...?? Where did I state an opinion..??
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  #63  
Old 22.02.2011, 07:26
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

If The Local is making money from EF now, are the current mods still happy to work for free seeing as they do most of the work? I know I wouldn't be........
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  #64  
Old 22.02.2011, 09:03
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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Are you seriously asking why an administrator of a website should react when users point him to a legal problem? It is not a coincidence that this thread is in forum support. That's where questions and suggestions go and that's where in the past years the powers-to-be gave feedback to them.

If I was running a company like the local, I would very much expect my employees to raise a point like this to me if it pops up. After all is it potentially a business risk (I was not making this up when I said you get a one year prison sentence for it in Germany). And I would - after researching it and making a decision - give the appropriate feedback to the forum. I personally think it should be something like a "thanks for the heads-up", but even a "we had a look and believe it is safe to continue the advertisement" would be ok.

That I do have to follow up to finally get some sarky comments is not what I consider "support". I do not care if editor bob is making the decision or only my point of contact towards the people in Sweden. He is the one running this website and if I have a feedback on his changes to the forum, I expect a reaction in the support forum.

Please let us know if your opinion is personal or if you are writing here on behalf of the mod team. So I know what to do with future suggestions...

Goodness Treverus, you seem to be missing the point on purpose.EB is an employee of a company that owns a few of these forums and other magazine sites etc. He isn't a member of this community. He lives in Germany. He is neither employed nor mandated to read through all these threads, whether they're in forum support or not. He read the first post of the thread, didn't see a proper question phrased, didn't want to generally join the discussion so asked you to pose a specific question. He answered it and moved on. I have no idea what your problem is, seriously, but with your reaction there is no surprise that EB doesn't want to get bogged down in these inane and time-wasting threads.

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If The Local is making money from EF now, are the current mods still happy to work for free seeing as they do most of the work? I know I wouldn't be........
OK, well then don't. It's really important to understand that there are two, somewhat seperate sides of the forum now. The code, hosting and architecture with adverts, paid for and run as a commercial enterprise by a company. And then the community and the posts, a free of charge endeavour looked after by the mods and contributed to by us. There seems to be a pretty good separation between these two sides of things and this I like. It's the only way it can work.
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  #65  
Old 22.02.2011, 09:51
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

Just so this maybe is ended. Deliberately advertising online gambling is an offence in Switzerland covered under the general law for Anstiftung Art. 24 StGB bis Art. 30StGB . This offence is also applicable in Germany covered under Art 26 StGB.

It requires one person to report the offence which Editor Bob has confirmed as a deliberate act for the officers of the company to be charged and clearly the site closed until the offending article/banner is removed.

That there is a disclaimer that the site is governed by German law is irrelevant as Internet sites have on quite a number of occassions being demonstrated in court to be governed by the law of the user or primary user and in this case being a deliberately Swiss site - see the name - that means the laws of Switzerland irrespective of any claimer to the contrary. If that was not the case all websites would be governed by the laws of Swaziland which for the internet is an anything goes land.

Note though only people who own or are associated with the running of the site can be charged. That certainly includes Editor Bob and might well include mods depending on what they are able to do - not what they have done.

Also note the fact that the Swiss government is not particularly interested in enforcement of the law in question does not reduce the liability to prosecution of those responsible as the offence in this case falls under a different law which is enforced and for which the penalties are a monetary fine up to 360 days of income maxed at CHF3000 per day.

Of course in reality there will not be a fine of over CHF 1 Million. Possibly 10 days at the daily income which might equate to very little but enough to hurt.
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  #66  
Old 22.02.2011, 09:56
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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EB did post a clear reply to your question.

("We" being The Local)

You are still totally misunderstanding his role on this forum, he's our IT guy, he can't make any policy changes. He gets paid to maintain the forum, if you want changes you need to go to the people who employ him (The Local).

Opinion...?? Where did I state an opinion..??
I think there is a little point being missed here. If EB is told to shoot someone would he? If he is told to commit a lesser but still obvious offence, would he? He has the ability to implement the offending article and under law that is sufficient not whether he makes the decision. He enacts it.
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  #67  
Old 22.02.2011, 09:57
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

Maybe he's decided to play roulette with the future of this website.

What an ace post! Joker.

*poker face*
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  #68  
Old 22.02.2011, 10:00
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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Opinion...?? Where did I state an opinion..??
You told me that I should not expect any reaction if I post a question like mine here in the forum support - especially not from editor bob. Looks like we consider it a different place. For me the support area is not only for "somebody bad repped me, what can I do?" or "Where did my thanks go?" questions, but all discussions on the forum and the changes of it. It is where the owners make announcements, where we were asked for feedback before and yes, where we discussed things we did not like about EF itself.

I would like to know if it is the opinion of the entire mod team or only your personal one that every request that goes beyond technical questions should be sent directly to the contacts you posted instead of being openly discussed here.

And the various "but he gave clear feedback" posts: Yes, after two weeks. After both some mods and me were aparently following it up and pushed for it. Great work, great initiative. Since mods do not feel responsible for the forum policies made in Sweden and eb is far to technical to be bothered to answer posts (including the ones on his own thread asking for feedback): Can we have a non-technical administrator that does read the two or three most important threads each month? Someone who at least pretends to care?
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  #69  
Old 22.02.2011, 10:03
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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Yes, after two weeks.....

Can we have a non-technical administrator that does read ... each month?
EB is working twice as fast as you're asking!
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  #70  
Old 22.02.2011, 10:12
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

Joking aside with roulette and jackpot... Seriously, soemone mentioned it before and rightly so that "we get it for free... this fantastic entrepod full of information and social network for some... and we still complain about it". I believe or at least hope that the leaders of this forum know what they are doing and let them run it the way they see it. It is their voluntary job. If they do not have a problem with commercial adverts and claim it is legal in their understanding it is ok with me. You know better what it takes to run this site. As a user I can only keep on contributing and hoping it will serve its purpose.
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  #71  
Old 22.02.2011, 10:34
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

As economisto says, we need to differentiate between forum content and commercial activity. Hate to say it but the corporate side of things is, well, corporate, and you know what that's like. EB probably has the best chance of bending Stockholm's ear about some particular issue; ordinary users emailing them out of the blue the least chance. (It does happen occasionally, and their response is invariably to contact EB, who contacts us. "Hey, anybody know what the situation is with ________? Good, you deal with him then.")

So yes, start your question off here in Forum Support, try to get it passed up the food chain till it reaches someone with the authority to make the decision. If it concerns forum content that'll generally be the mods; if it involves some tweaks to forum software it'll be EB or one of his tech minions; if it concerns commercial activities of the site it'll be The Local.

That is what happened here. The question was beyond EB's remit (he's not the one who makes these advertising contracts) so he passed it up to the appropriate people at The Local. (In fairly short order, I might add.) Now the decision's come back down. I'm unhappy with the result too but what can you do?

Whatever you do, please don't let this stop you from raising other concerns in future. It's very much appreciated. I mean that.
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  #72  
Old 22.02.2011, 11:18
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

well i think there are 2 sides as gambling can be a sensitive topic (like public smoking etc.). but the issue was flagged and now it has been looked at.

as EB said, there's unlikely to be trouble:

- i can't imagine the police regularly checking websites for illegal adverts.
- even if they do they might not be able to collect sufficient evidence
- even if they did, they have limited ability to do anything about it. after all, servers are outside switzerland as are the management
- ok, the mods are in switzerland and although i would find it highly entertaining if the mods were fined for this, it seems pretty unlikely.
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  #73  
Old 22.02.2011, 11:41
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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- even if they do they might not be able to collect sufficient evidence
- even if they did, they have limited ability to do anything about it. after all, servers are outside switzerland as are the management
The other points of what you say are absolutely correct but:
The evidence is clear if there is a gambling link in the website.
They have the ability to close this site as the site is actually linked through Switch or Nic.ch depending how you look at it which is a pseudo government body and through the Lugano convention any fines given down in any court signed to the Lugano convention which includes all EU states and Switzerland are enforceable in the respective countries ie Sweden and Germany.

So while it would appear to you there is nothing they can do I can assure you they can close this site, remove ownership of the domain and intellectual property and fine all of those involved, which certainly includes the owners and EB and potentially the mods - I don't know their powers.

Obviously the chances are slim that there will be anything more than a rap across the knuckles but...

And what does it need? - a disgruntled EFer reporting it!
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  #74  
Old 22.02.2011, 11:48
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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JIt requires one person to report the offence
Calling Wolli
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Old 22.02.2011, 12:28
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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They have the ability to close this site as the site is actually linked through Switch or Nic.ch depending how you look at it which is a pseudo government body and through the Lugano convention any fines given down in any court signed to the Lugano convention which includes all EU states and Switzerland are enforceable in the respective countries ie Sweden and Germany.

So while it would appear to you there is nothing they can do I can assure you they can close this site, remove ownership of the domain and intellectual property and fine all of those involved, which certainly includes the owners and EB and potentially the mods - I don't know their powers.
yes, they could also mobilise the army and shoot the admins. yes, in theory they could, but do they have any legal basis for seizing or closing a domain name?

also, the drinking age is higher in the US than in the UK, but i didn't have the american government come and get me. there's also the question of whether this falls within the reach of swiss law.
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  #76  
Old 22.02.2011, 12:38
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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If The Local is making money from EF now, are the current mods still happy to work for free seeing as they do most of the work? I know I wouldn't be........
"Is CHF000,000 enough compensation to put up with this crap?" did cross my mind as a new thread title.

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Can we have a non-technical administrator that does read the two or three most important threads each month? Someone who at least pretends to care?
Editor Bob is our Capo. He allows moderators relative freedom to continue holding back the tide in the way we see fit. Mods are nothing more than Members willing to work for "CHF000,000 to put up with this crap". This freedom from editorial control is - for me at least - a prerequisite to spend my time happily bumbling along. EB has other sites he's managing and his main task is to keep things running. When a mod flags a support question to EB, he always acknowledges this and responds when he gets a clear answer himself.

By all means PM him with your concerns but the chances are we have already done it. The response is not going to be any faster; he's waiting for his feedback. The site is owned as part of a larger group and inevitably things are a bit slower than if there were a figurehead paying attention to every info request. All the mods put in loads of hours of their own time; being an ever present Admin would be a larger task and the current model is what we have. Modding alone comes from differing motivations. Admin is a whole different league of service provision.

Mods can be conduits for such information; perhaps chillax when we say we've forwarded the request and a response will be forthcoming.

We don't ignore stuff, but - as has been previously mentioned - things slow down when it comes to legal questions and commercial interests.

Cablecom provides TV from the United Kingdom. ITV is a commercial broadcaster with several channels, all of which promote online gambling websites during their - often - late night adverts and have been doing so for some time without stress from the Law. Just sayin'.
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Old 22.02.2011, 12:39
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yes, they could also mobilise the army and shoot the admins. yes, in theory they could, but do they have any legal basis for seizing or closing a domain name?

also, the drinking age is higher in the US than in the UK, but i didn't have the american government come and get me. there's also the question of whether this falls within the reach of swiss law.
According to established case law it is under the jurisdiction of Switzerland. And the domain name is also unders the jurisdiction of Switzerland (.ch). A domain name can be siezed if promotes or carries out illegal activities or controvenes any of the restrictions placed on the country domain structure. See wikileaks for the ability and basis for closing a domain.

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Cablecom provides TV from the United Kingdom. ITV is a commercial broadcaster with several channels, all of which promote online gambling websites during their - often - late night adverts and have been doing so for some time without stress from the Law. Just sayin'.
There are very specific rules that apply to TV broadcasts and these are covered at a European level. No such agreement exists for the Internet.

By the way I should say I don't care one way or the other. It does not effect me. I am only saying there are legal methods and grounds for action to close the EF site and fine it's masters and whilst ignoring these issues is perfectly fine to me if it gets closed down because of it, it would be a shame.

Last edited by Uncle Max; 22.02.2011 at 12:49. Reason: Merged successive posts. Perhaps next time use the multi quote icon.
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  #78  
Old 24.02.2011, 13:31
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

The ad is now geotargetted and only displayed to readers outside of Switzerland.

The geotargetting is not perfect. But in the majority of cases, if you are located in Switzerland then you'll no longer see the ad.
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Old 24.02.2011, 13:56
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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The geotargetting is not perfect. But in the majority of cases, if you are located in Switzerland then you'll no longer see the ad.
Let's pray that includes Treverus' IP.
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Old 24.02.2011, 14:01
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Re: Online gambling section on the EF front page

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The ad is now geotargetted and only displayed to readers outside of Switzerland.
Oh oh. What are they sneaking in while they've got us distracted?
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