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Old 20.02.2011, 16:42
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

I'm between the devil and the deep blue sea on this one.

I don't like it when 'old hands' wade into a round of 'bashing Newbies' without considering the situation of said new member. However, I don't really like it much either when the answer to the Newbie's question could have been found by reading a Sticky which said 'Read this before Posting' or similar. It isn't much better when a member then gives a detailed reply instead of pointing out that the info is right there. It only means the person asking asks in the same manner next time - possible with the same lack of relevant information needed for an accurate reply.

And please guys, if you see a really good link that might help to answer the 'we've been asked this 100 times before', drop me a PM. Maybe we could put it into the Multi-Stickies at the top of the Sub-Forum. Not that the Newbies will find it, but we can direct them straight there. Members sometimes make a new Thread for good links but this slips off the front page in hours and unless someone is reasonably good at searching, it's lost for ever.

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When I was growing up, my mother told me that if I didn’t have anything nice to say, I shouldn’t say anything at all.
We older generation were also taught to look with our eyes and not with our fingers, which meant that you didn't go pressing knobs until you knew which button did what. We were taught to read the instructions BEFORE we ripped all the packing off. If I could manage to find out how to make an introduction in my first post and to look around before asking questions then so can some of the young whippersnappers who were brought up on computers and the internet.
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  #22  
Old 20.02.2011, 16:53
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

Personally I am always nice to the newbies. It's only the long standing members I think are a bunch of dickwads.
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Old 20.02.2011, 16:54
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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I'm between the devil and the deep blue sea on this one.

I don't like it when 'old hands' wade into a round of 'bashing Newbies' without considering the situation of said new member. However, I don't really like it much either when the answer to the Newbie's question could have been found by reading a Sticky which said 'Read this before Posting' or similar. It isn't much better when a member then gives a detailed reply instead of pointing out that the info is right there. It only means the person asking asks in the same manner next time - possible with the same lack of relevant information needed for an accurate reply.

And please guys, if you see a really good link that might help to answer the 'we've been asked this 100 times before', drop me a PM. Maybe we could put it into the Multi-Stickies at the top of the Sub-Forum. Not that the Newbies will find it, but we can direct them straight there. Members sometimes make a new Thread for good links but this slips off the front page in hours and unless someone is reasonably good at searching, it's lost for ever.

We older generation were also taught to look with our eyes and not with our fingers, which meant that you didn't go pressing knobs until you knew which button did what. We were taught to read the instructions BEFORE we ripped all the packing off. If I could manage to find out how to make an introduction in my first post and to look around before asking questions then so can some of the young whippersnappers who were brought up on computers and the internet.
I agree with all of what you are saying.

I think the OP wants to make it clear that you can answer someone or not if you are annoyed to see the same question again and again without having made a proper research.

But also, you can tell someone nicely to look around the forum to find the answer instead to tell him to pi** off and get lost!
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Old 20.02.2011, 16:56
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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But it also states to be polite and kind to each other. To not get into personal attack and stay civilised. And not everyone respect that bit either...

It is important to know that the job they ask you to do has the proper salary and they won't try to foul you.

Maybe if the country was spending more energy on getting his population a good education and degrees, maybe, just maybe, they will hold more important key role in big companies. How many Swiss hold a degree to fill out those positions?

And if the big companies had more skilled people available here, they wouldn't have to importe foreigners...

Don't you think?
Depends some members seem to do think that if someone disagrees with them it's a personal insult. (no names wouldn't want anyone to take it personally)

What planet are you on? The Swiss have some of the best educated people in the world. They are extremely hard working, talented and committed in my experience. Why shouldn't they have a chance?

Depends if the foreigners are taking many of the opportunities that the Swiss should have.

Then again the quest for massive profits and corporate ruthlessness means they have to import the parasites and nasties from the UK/US (of whom I am one)

BTW Wave to Editor Bob nice to see you
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:02
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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I agree with all of what you are saying.

But also, you can tell someone nicely to look around the forum to find the answer instead to tell him to pi** off and get lost!
That's clear as mud then, where was the newbie told to P off? You on crack again?

He was informed to create an introduction and use the search function.

It was just lazyness on behalf of the newbie, as a possible very senior manager in Pharma I would expect a bit more than being able to tie their shoelaces. I'd expect a little intelligence some research and some clarity in their FIRST post.
  #26  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:06
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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Depends some members seem to do think that if someone disagrees with them it's a personal insult. (no names wouldn't want anyone to take it personally)

What planet are you on? The Swiss have some of the best educated people in the world. They are extremely hard working, talented and committed in my experience. Why shouldn't they have a chance?

Depends if the foreigners are taking many of the opportunities that the Swiss should have.

Then again the quest for massive profits and corporate ruthlessness means they have to import the parasites and nasties from the UK/US (of whom I am one)

BTW Wave to Editor Bob nice to see you
Do they have the education to hold key role position? Because if they do, it is maybe to the goverment to create laws or enforce laws to make sure that people here have priorities over foreigners.

What I do know is in my husband's company, they import people because they can't find here someone suitable for the position. Believe me, if they had those people here available, it would cost much less money for the company to use them than importing others.

Parasites and Nasties from the UK/US? Thank God we are not from either those countries....
  #27  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:07
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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Depends if the foreigners are taking many of the opportunities that the Swiss should have.
I work for one of the big Swiss multinationals, and I've been part of the hiring panel for many roles.

When we recruit, we advertise the roles on our website. We encourage all qualified candidates to apply, regardless of whether they are Swiss or not. As per the law, we give preference to candidates from Switzerland and the EU, and we can secure a work permit for a non-EU citizen only if we can demonstrate that there haven't been any qualified EU/CH candidates.

After our interviews, we offer the job to the best candidate. The best candidate may not always be Swiss. There is a limited labour pool in Switzerland, and not everyone can be in the top 10%. Switzerland has been extremely successful in creating successful, innovative companies that need plenty of high-level employees -- more than can be met by the local workforce alone. That's why they have to look further abroad to find the best candidates.

Should we give the job to a less-qualified applicant just because he/she is Swiss? When the Swiss signed the bilateral labour agreement, they answered that question for us: no. In the referendum vote held on May 21, 2000, the Swiss voters approved the bilateral agreements with the EU by a clear 2/3's majority. If they had wanted protectionism for Swiss jobs, they could have kept their labour market closed, like many other countries. They decided that an open labour market would build a more competitive Switzerland, and history seems to show that they're right.

I don't lose too much sleep about taking jobs from the Swiss. Swiss unemployment is 3.5%, compared to 9% in the US, 7.9% in the UK, and 8% in India. There aren't too many Swiss people in breadlines...
  #28  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:10
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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That's clear as mud then, where was the newbie told to P off? You on crack again?

He was informed to create an introduction and use the search function.

It was just lazyness on behalf of the newbie, as a possible very senior manager in Pharma I would expect a bit more than being able to tie their shoelaces. I'd expect a little intelligence some research and some clarity in their FIRST post.
Honestly, do you really need to be rude and mean? Does it brings you something good? It does make you feel better isn't it?

I hope so because it doesn't bring you more respect...

Maybe you could try to be a bit more diplomate? But you don't have to do that, don't you? You have a screen and a key board to hide your face behind...

Come on!
  #29  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:14
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

Personally, I am of the opinion that there's no need to be rude...especially when you cannot see the other person and you surely do not understand or know what the person could be going through at the time of posting his/her questions.

You might be comfortable in your life, and maybe forgotten what it means to be new to something other than your own world.

If you've had enough of people asking the same questions about salary, cooking, where to get this or buy that, then just ignore it, read something else.

There really is no need to be rude/insulting or unwelcoming. Not everybody has had the luxury of etiquette.

Hope I did not offend anybody.

Still friends
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:15
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

Yet another newbie-didn't-search-and-got-slagged-off-debate. This comes round every 6 months too.

I simply no longer respond to stupid/lazy questioners. This way they don't get insulted and the fuffay brigade can't jump to their defence...
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  #31  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:16
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

Nil and Cat, please split it guys. This sort of off-topic verbal interchange isn't a good advert for Newbies to see how we behave on here either.
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:17
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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Do they have the education to hold key role position? Because if they do, it is maybe to the goverment to create laws or enforce laws to make sure that people here have priorities over foreigners.

What I do know is in my husband's company, they import people because they can't find here someone suitable for the position. Believe me, if they had those people here available, it would cost much less money for the company to use them than importing others.

Parasites and Nasties from the UK/US? Thank God we are not from either those countries....
There is a difference between education and experience. Unfortunately the Swiss seem to collect degrees later than people from the UK for instance so normally by the time they leave the UK bod has x5 yrs on them. This is why pharmas import not on a purely education 1:1, it's a very difficult problem to address.

There's a nasty smell in Swiss pharma from these people who have imported an attitude of profit, risk, long hours etc and this goes against a policy of quality, intelligent decisions and family that most Swiss possess. UBS is another Swiss example?

The answer is to readdress the balance between these companies enjoying very low taxes and the investment they put into local universities. They benefit from the country therefore they should pay back into the system.
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:18
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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Yet another newbie-didn't-search-and-got-slagged-off-debate. This comes round every 6 months too.
Sorry, that's my fault. I didn't do a search first.
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:23
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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Nil and Cat, please split it guys. This sort of off-topic verbal interchange isn't a good advert for Newbies to see how we behave on here either.
Should be addressed to sooooo many people here!
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:26
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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Honestly, do you really need to be rude and mean? Does it brings you something good? It does make you feel better isn't it?

I hope so because it doesn't bring you more respect...

Maybe you could try to be a bit more diplomate? But you don't have to do that, don't you? You have a screen and a key board to hide your face behind...

Come on!
I'm annoyed as you didnt read what I posted I never told the newbie to P off hence you got sniped.

I don't like being patronised Nil, please refrain from doing it....

Well that's all good then as I don't want or need your respect.

I don't have to be diplomatic. I don't hide behind a screen and a keyboard try asking some of your Basel pals who I am, many know me. Don't worry I'll be up there soon smiling at you no doubt.

Nah I think I'll move on, I accept AbFabs comments as well as our mods, they've made the most sense.
  #36  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:26
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

Maybe we should have an EF open day, where we have to be nice to all the new visitors. Or would that be like an open day at St Trinians ??






EDIT: Have you spotted DB ??
  #37  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:30
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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I'm annoyed as you didnt read what I posted I never told the newbie to P off hence you got sniped.

Well that's all good then as I don't want or need your respect.

I don't have to be diplomatic. I don't hide behind a screen and a keyboard try asking some of your Basel pals who I am, many know me. Don't worry I'll be up there soon smiling at you no doubt.

Nah I think I'll move on, I accept AbFabs comments as well as our mods, they've made the most sense.
The Pissed off was more a general comments, because you are not the only one who tend to be rude to newbies (or not) when pissed off!

I don't need your respect either, it is just a better environment to be able to be respectful to each other!

So I hope that means you'll join us to the Brunch event I'll post soon! You will be able to smile at me!
  #38  
Old 20.02.2011, 17:33
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

The solution is easy. We should *charge* people for telling them whether their salary is good enough or not.

No one posts asking whether 50,000 is enough or what the going rate for a nanny/cleaner is (unless they're wanting to hire), it's only those who are earning serious money. They can, therefore, afford to pay to have their salary validated.

Is 100 CHF/hour enough for a salary negotiator? I need to know.
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:41
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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The solution is easy. We should *charge* people for telling them whether their salary is good enough or not.

No one posts asking whether 50,000 is enough or what the going rate for a nanny/cleaner is (unless they're wanting to hire), it's only those who are earning serious money. They can, therefore, afford to pay to have their salary validated.

Is 100 CHF/hour enough for a salary negotiator? I need to know.


And you forgot the local taxes, etc...depending on who responded first. This is very important here since we are all charged differently.
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Old 20.02.2011, 17:51
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Re: A little civility, please! Be welcoming to newcomers...

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So I hope that means you'll join us to the Brunch event I'll post soon! You will be able to smile at me!
Of course I'll be there if I can, nr Allschwil where I used to live.
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