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Old 19.10.2019, 03:34
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Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

Note from Doropfiz regarding the thread split:
After there had been some upset on several occasions, I hope to prompt people, of whom MusicChick is one, to re-think the way they post, to make it more constructive.
-------------------------------

@MusicChick, I thought a lot about whether or not to post openly. I decided to do so since you chose not responded to my PM a while ago (which is your right, fair enough), since when I tried again more recently, I received a message that your mailbox cannot receive incoming messages, and because I find it sad that so many of the core and helpful posters here are repeatedly upset by the way you post. And because there is hope.

I agree fully with RufusB that there is
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.... no bloodthirst, just a lot of weary frustration and downright incredulity that you cannot see how you come across here.
My guess is that Rufus is right, too, that
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...you believe your way of writing to be coolly idiosyncratic and charming....
and that
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You preach live and let live but are very quick to censure and shut folk down; seem to relish actively stirring pots that don't need it and under the guise of playing devil's advocate....
Offering and receiving alternative points of view in a discussion can be interesting and valuable. However, differing and disagreeing can be done politely and need not come across as shutting down and striking down the other parties to the conversation. Your posts, in my opinion, too often do that, and bitingly so. I think that is wholly unnecessary behaviour for anyone on any forum at all, and particularly unbefitting of a moderator.

(As an aside, Rufus and I have differed about the topic in some threads, as have meloncollie and I in others, yet even when either of them has found my views frustrating or ill-informed, they never put me down nor insult me, nor do I either of them, as we put forward our divergent views. Neither of them, nor I, bring offence, derision or aggression to the discussion, nor boastfulness of their/my/our achievements and successes. I mention this to illustrate that I don’t think discussions need be all bland-and-sweet, yet it is definitely possible to conduct them with basic good manners, and even affirming respect for those who see things differently from one’s own perspective.)


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Wish I could help, just dunno how, really.
Peace.
I'm never quite sure, when reading your posts, MusicChick, whether
a) you really dunno (sic) how to help yet wish you could, perhaps genuinely unaware that sometimes (in my opinion definitely not always, but far too often) your writing has a whitheringly harsh edge to it, a derisive tone which comes across, to me (and as I observe not only to me) as scornful of others and boastful about yourself, and in that combination potentially hurtful, or
b) you perhaps really do actively enjoy hurting others.
I so do very much want to maintain the hope that it is not b)!

The good news is that, yes, there are things that you, MusicChick (and others on this forum), could do to help, really. You sign your post "Peace", and my request is: "Yes, please!".

Ideas which can help any poster on a forum who decides they would like to help improve the situation, after having repeatedly been called out by others for posting in an unpleasant way, or having been told that their posts come across as aggressive and/or don't fully make sense
  1. It’s fine to take a break from the forum once in a while. Even when you are actively reading, keep reminding yourself that you do not have to post, and instead can sometimes just choose not to write anything at all.
  2. Once you notice that certain users' posts tend to annoy you, or - even more importantly - that your posts annoy certain users, simply desist. Don't be a troll to them, and don't take the bait if you think they are trolling you.
  3. When you do choose to write, as far as your command of the language allows, afford other users the courtesy of using full sentences with punctuation and paragraphs, and avoid abbreviations and slang.
  4. Keep in mind that many of the readers on the forum are more learned, more experienced, more qualified in some field than you, perhaps even in the field(s) in which you know the most. Accord them due respect for that. And write with respect and courtesy, even to the youngest, the weakest, and the least knowledgeable and to the newest newby.
  5. Write each post as a draft only, and do not post it live straight away. First let it rest for at least a few minutes, or for a day and a night, while you turn your attention to something else. In order to avoid hurting others, adhere to this self-imposed time barrier with particular discipline whenever you feel that a post or topic has caused your emotions to rise hot, or when you observe that others are particularly emotionally invested in a topic.
  6. When re-reading a potential post, before you click "submit reply", ask yourself:
  • Is my use of English clear?
  • Is my text cleaned up, free of phrasing which makes it hard to understand, (perhaps because I wrote in haste, or because I used colloquial formulations common only to my own circle)?
  • Is my writing free of anything rude, derisive, cutting or insulting?
  • When I describe myself and my activities, have I avoided bragging, boastfulness and an air of superiority which puts others down?
  • Is this post a positive contribution, in that it is unlikely to cause harm, but instead is likely to offer someone support, to help to relieve someone's burden, to make life better (on the forum and in Real Life), to make someone laugh, to help someone know that they’ve been understood, to suggest another way of seeing things without being destructive, to be a useful, constructive contribution, in peace?
If the answer to any of these questions under 6. is "no", return to 1. to 5. above.

Of course, we all see things differently. That’s why some people take offence where others do not, and some understand the humour or bantering of others which leaves yet others stung or confused. Some appreciate being asked questions to challenge them to think differently, some are looking only for affirmation. Some like advice and others don't, even when they've cried out for some. It’s likely that someone may not like this post of mine. We don’t all have to like the same thing, and that's okay; it's the way of fora and the way of the world.

I’d like you to know that I offer this as a reply to your cry, MusicChick, that you want to help but don’t know how to improve things. Since you’ve been on the receiving end of so much criticism, so many times, and I suppose that that can’t have been very pleasant for you, my intention is to remind you of a way forward.

I’d like to encourage you to improve things, since change does lie within your power. If you wish to help make things better, then yes, you can! You can choose to grab hold of and practice some of the known techniques (since none of what I wrote, in my steps, above, is original and such suggestions are often listed, in one way or another, in the netiquette of fora, or basic outline for conduct in meetings, negotiations or mediation). I believe, or at least I really want to hope, that you have it within you to excercise the self-control to use the guidelines of good manners, to make your contributions less abrasive, and thereby the reading of other users on this forum, (and thereby, too, their responses to you) both more useful and more peaceful. Please, MusicChick, try. Thank you.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 19.10.2019 at 14:57. Reason: style, no change to meaning
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Old 19.10.2019, 12:17
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

Oh my, I wonder if you forgot something? Excellent post, doropfiz, seriously.
But of course, we should all read it carefully and take notes, not only MC.

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You, Sky, Melloncolie, RufusB, edot and quite a few others are the reason for which I kept hanging around here for so long. Thank you.
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Old 19.10.2019, 12:40
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Oh my, I wonder if you forgot something? Excellent post, doropfiz, seriously.
But of course, we should all read it carefully and take notes, not only MC.
The green part is pertinent to everyone, the rest of it is specifically aimed at MC because she did specifically say that she didn’t know what to do.

An excellent post indeed.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 20.10.2019 at 17:16.
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Old 19.10.2019, 13:06
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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The green part is pertinent to everyone, the rest of it is specifically aimed at MC.

An excellent post indeed.
Good point. To be honest I doubt many people are able to see their own faults or are very willing to change anything in their own way of posting or relating to other members of the forum. Sometimes is not even possible. It's their personality, character or command of the English language or whatever. And by this, trust me, I don't mean to defend MC in any way, nor do I think she'd want to be "defended", of course. I was on the receiving end of that "I'm a mod therefore I can do whatever I want" kind of thinking but not from MC's part, funny that. I don't condone this attitude, so please, don't take my post wrong.

In my view, a mod is or should be a lot more reserved and more careful with words when posting here than the rest of us. Perhaps this is a job (a job? or function?) that should be payed so you can ask people doing it to take some sort of responsibility or to adhere to a stricter code of values. I don't think it can function well or very smoothly only with volunteers.

This is a subject that whoever owns this site should start taking seriously. There were numerous discussions on this forum and they preferred to be evasive.
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Old 19.10.2019, 13:07
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

Excellent post, Doropfiz

I think it deserves its own thread though....here it will be drowned out by pedantic posturing about what to call political parties.
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Old 19.10.2019, 13:12
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

Yes, thank you, edot, that's a good idea.
Could a mod please split the thread?

Suggested title: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum
Intro: After there had been some upset on several occasions, I hope to prompt people, of whom MusicChick is one, to re-think the way they post, to make it more constructive.

Thank you.
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Old 19.10.2019, 13:13
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Good point. To be honest I doubt many people are able to see their own faults or are very willing to change anything in their own way of posting or relating to other members of the forum. Sometimes is not even possible. It's their personality, character or command of the English language or whatever. And by this, trust me, I don't mean to defend MC in any way, nor do I think she'd want to be "defended", of course. I was on the receiving end of that "I'm a mod therefore I can do whatever I want" kind of thinking but not from MC's part, funny that. I don't condone this attitude, so please, don't take my post wrong.

In my view, a mod is or should be a lot more reserved and more careful with words when posting here than the rest of us. Perhaps this is a job (a job? or function?) that should be payed so you can ask people doing it to take some sort of responsibility. I don't think it functions well only with volunteers.
This is the crux of the issue. I have no problem with anyone being snarky, passive aggressive, hypersensitive, an apologist for child abuse and white supremacy, or a born-again alt-right wingnut. I'm more than happy to grapple with any posters who match that profile in my own over-the-top pisstaking way.

But is it really appropriate for such a person to be a moderator, with access to our rep comments and email addresses and who knows what else?

Sure, mods are allowed to have opinions, but as this thread and others have demonstrated, there's a world of difference between merely having an opinion and being an active shitstirrer while wearing a mod hat.
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Old 19.10.2019, 13:30
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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This is the crux of the issue. I have no problem with anyone being snarky, passive aggressive, hypersensitive, an apologist for child abuse and white supremacy, or a born-again alt-right wingnut. I'm more than happy to grapple with any posters who match that profile in my own over-the-top pisstaking way.

But is it really appropriate for such a person to be a moderator, with access to our rep comments and email addresses and who knows what else?

Sure, mods are allowed to have opinions, but as this thread and others have demonstrated, there's a world of difference between merely having an opinion and being an active shitstirrer while wearing a mod hat.
Absolutely this.

Say, think, believe, share what you will but without the associated Admin rights. It's just wrong. Plus Mods cannot be put on ignore. That, for me, is key. Some people, MC in particular, are not cut out to be a mod for all the reasons stated above.

Doropfiz, an outstanding post. Thank you.
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Old 19.10.2019, 13:49
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Absolutely this.

Say, think, believe, share what you will but without the associated Admin rights. It's just wrong. Plus Mods cannot be put on ignore. That, for me, is key. Some people, MC in particular, are not cut out to be a mod for all the reasons stated above.

Doropfiz, an outstanding post. Thank you.
Yes, totally agree with that!
Btw, I can only imagine doropfiz didn't write this pretty exhaustive post with a light heart. Her posts too were confronted many times here and she really lived up to what she posted above.
Hats off.
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Old 19.10.2019, 16:28
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

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Note from Doropfiz regarding the thread split:
After there had been some upset on several occasions, I hope to prompt people, of whom MusicChick is one, to re-think the way they post, to make it more constructive.
-------------------------------

@MusicChick, I thought a lot about whether or not to post openly. I decided to do so since you chose not responded to my PM a while ago (which is your right, fair enough), since when I tried again more recently, I received a message that your mailbox cannot receive incoming messages, and because I find it sad that so many of the core and helpful posters here are repeatedly upset by the way you post. And because there is hope.

I agree fully with RufusB that there is

My guess is that Rufus is right, too, that and that

Offering and receiving alternative points of view in a discussion can be interesting and valuable. However, differing and disagreeing can be done politely and need not come across as shutting down and striking down the other parties to the conversation. Your posts, in my opinion, too often do that, and bitingly so. I think that is wholly unnecessary behaviour for anyone on any forum at all, and particularly unbefitting of a moderator.

(As an aside, Rufus and I have differed about the topic in some threads, as have meloncollie and I in others, yet even when either of them has found my views frustrating or ill-informed, they never put me down nor insult me, nor do I either of them, as we put forward our divergent views. Neither of them, nor I, bring offence, derision or aggression to the discussion, nor boastfulness of their/my/our achievements and successes. I mention this to illustrate that I donít think discussions need be all bland-and-sweet, yet it is definitely possible to conduct them with basic good manners, and even affirming respect for those who see things differently from oneís own perspective.)




I'm never quite sure, when reading your posts, MusicChick, whether
a) you really dunno (sic) how to help yet wish you could, perhaps genuinely unaware that sometimes (in my opinion definitely not always, but far too often) your writing has a whitheringly harsh edge to it, a derisive tone which comes across, to me (and as I observe not only to me) as scornful of others and boastful about yourself, and in that combination potentially hurtful, or
b) you perhaps really do actively enjoy hurting others.
I so do very much want to maintain the hope that it is not b)!

The good news is that, yes, there are things that you, MusicChick (and others on this forum), could do to help, really. You sign your post "Peace", and my request is: "Yes, please!".

Ideas which can help any poster on a forum who decides they would like to help improve the situation, after having repeatedly been called out by others for posting in an unpleasant way, or having been told that their posts come across as aggressive and/or don't fully make sense
  1. Itís fine to take a break from the forum once in a while. Even when you are actively reading, keep reminding yourself that you do not have to post, and instead can sometimes just choose not to write anything at all.
  2. Once you notice that certain users' posts tend to annoy you, or - even more importantly - that your posts annoy certain users, simply desist. Don't be a troll to them, and don't take the bait if you think they are trolling you.
  3. When you do choose to write, as far as your command of the language allows, afford other users the courtesy of using full sentences with punctuation and paragraphs, and avoid abbreviations and slang.
  4. Keep in mind that many of the readers on the forum are more learned, more experienced, more qualified in some field than you, perhaps even in the field(s) in which you know the most. Accord them due respect for that. And write with respect and courtesy, even to the youngest, the weakest, and the least knowledgeable and to the newest newby.
  5. Write each post as a draft only, and do not post it live straight away. First let it rest for at least a few minutes, or for a day and a night, while you turn your attention to something else. In order to avoid hurting others, adhere to this self-imposed time barrier with particular discipline whenever you feel that a post or topic has caused your emotions to rise hot, or when you observe that others are particularly emotionally invested in a topic.
  6. When re-reading a potential post, before you click "submit reply", ask yourself:
  • Is my use of English clear?
  • Is my text cleaned up, free of phrasing which makes it hard to understand, (perhaps because I wrote in haste, or because I used colloquial formulations common only to my own circle)?
  • Is my writing free of anything rude, derisive, cutting or insulting?
  • When I describe myself and my activities, have I avoided bragging, boastfulness and an air of superiority which puts others down?
  • Is this post a positive contribution, in that it is unlikely to cause harm, but instead is likely to offer someone support, to help to relieve someone's burden, to make life better (on the forum and in Real Life), to make someone laugh, to help someone know that theyíve been understood, to suggest another way of seeing things without being destructive, to be a useful, constructive contribution, in peace?
If the answer to any of these questions under 6. is "no", return to 1. to 5. above.

Of course, we all see things differently. Thatís why some people take offence where others do not, and some understand the humour or bantering of others which leaves yet others stung or confused. Some appreciate being asked questions to challenge them to think differently, some are looking only for affirmation. Some like advice and others don't, even when they've cried out for some. Itís likely that someone may not like this post of mine. We donít all have to like the same thing, and that's okay; it's the way of fora and the way of the world.

Iíd like you to know that I offer this as a reply to your cry, MusicChick, that you want to help but donít know how to improve things. Since youíve been on the receiving end of so much criticism, so many times, and I suppose that that canít have been very pleasant for you, my intention is to remind you of a way forward.

Iíd like to encourage you to improve things, since change does lie within your power. If you wish to help make things better, then yes, you can! You can choose to grab hold of and practice some of the known techniques (since none of what I wrote, in my steps, above, is original and such suggestions are often listed, in one way or another, in the netiquette of fora, or basic outline for conduct in meetings, negotiations or mediation). I believe, or at least I really want to hope, that you have it within you to excercise the self-control to use the guidelines of good manners, to make your contributions less abrasive, and thereby the reading of other users on this forum, (and thereby, too, their responses to you) both more useful and more peaceful. Please, MusicChick, try. Thank you.
Am I excused ? I am old
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Old 19.10.2019, 16:36
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

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Am I excused ? I am old
Dude....you canít be that much older than I am.
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Old 19.10.2019, 18:04
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

Man, you put a lot of thought into your post, Doropfiz. Personally, I think it all boils down to one thing:

Be RESPECTFUL and leave your ego at the door.... we're dealing with humans here.
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Old 19.10.2019, 19:58
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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Sure, mods are allowed to have opinions, but as this thread and others have demonstrated, there's a world of difference between merely having an opinion and being an active shitstirrer while wearing a mod hat.
I don't think it's permanently doable to wear what are effectively two different hats unless it's already part of your posting style, in which case there's no need for two hats in the first place. Biting the mod's tail here.

What if mods had a second, separate and ordinary, account for their everyday posts? With ordinary rights so they can't use mod power and inadvertantly out themselves while logged in with them?
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Old 19.10.2019, 20:09
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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I don't think it's permanently doable to wear what are effectively two different hats unless it's already part of your posting style, in which case there's no need for two hats in the first place. Biting the mod's tail here.

What if mods had a second, separate and ordinary, account for their everyday posts? With ordinary rights so they can't use mod power and inadvertantly out themselves while logged in with them?
It's simple, if you're not cut from that material, don't play the mod role. You can be an ordinary member like everyone else, and show us how brave you are when you can't use the privilege to be as nasty as you wish. Express your opinions in an unnecessarily contrarian and unjustifiably patronising way you see fit to? Nobody should be granted privileges they're not able to use for the general good. Like in politics, you know. Nobody has to be a mod, it's a job in which some people stayed way too long and now are drunk with power.

Again, whoever is able to fix these things will keep ignoring all of these. Hilarious.

Last edited by greenmount; 19.10.2019 at 20:23.
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Old 19.10.2019, 20:38
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

I'm confused .. What is this actually about.. ?

It seemed to start as general advice albeit with MC named specifically.. How everybody should think before posting and be nice etc?
Then MODs abuse of power then MC again specifically?

It now just looks like another jump on MC post, same people who did last couple of times.

Unless I missed something I've seen very few posts in general from MC recently, certainly nothing controversial?

What am I missing here ? @OP did you just wake up at 2am and remember you didn't like this MOD? Is there some controversial thread I'm missing?
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Old 19.10.2019, 20:43
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

Wondering the same thing John H. No idea where this was split off from to trigger doropfiz's post.

Plenty of food for thought in there though - might best be summed up with a rule from another of my forums - don't be a dick.
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Old 19.10.2019, 20:48
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Re: Why is SVP popular?

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It's simple, if you're not cut from that material, don't play the mod role. You can be an ordinary member like everyone else, and show us how brave you are when you can't use the privilege to be as nasty as you wish. Express your opinions in an unnecessarily contrarian and unjustifiably patronising way you see fit to? Nobody should be granted privileges they're not able to use for the general good. Like in politics, you know. Nobody has to be a mod, it's a job in which some people stayed way too long and now are drunk with power.

Again, whoever is able to fix these things will keep ignoring all of these. Hilarious.
Given recent threads on the topic at least half of the active mods would have to leave if you had your way. That would leave perhaps two remaining, in which case this forum would probably go down the drains (or even more so than it does already, if that's your line of thinking).
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Old 19.10.2019, 20:51
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

Sorry, I should have put this in the original post for clarity. This discussion was split off from this thread:
https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-po...p-popular.html

There are still a number of OT posts near the end of that thread which may help provide context.

Somewhere in there, there's a post by MC asking another user about why that person gave her red rep, and I think that's what kicked off the latest round.
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Old 19.10.2019, 21:00
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

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Wondering the same thing John H. No idea where this was split off from to trigger doropfiz's post.

Plenty of food for thought in there though - might best be summed up with a rule from another of my forums - don't be a dick.
Well exactly .. Don't be a dick.

In the absence of anything to the contrary, it appears that the OP has just decided to hand out posting advice to MC in a rather condescending way? Maybe for historic reasons? Maybe for personal reasons? Which is being a dick in my book.

The green text is fine, make it sticky in the member introduction forum. But wrapping it up and targeting it in this way is pretty off.

Again, change my mind. I may be missing something.


* Hope my use of English is ok and I haven't missed any punctuation.
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Old 19.10.2019, 21:08
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Re: Ideas for making constructive posts on a forum [thread split]]

I thought moderators weren't supposed to have dupe accounts?
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