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  #181  
Old 06.02.2020, 13:22
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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Oh well, that is at least good news that he is alive and kicking.

I'd quite often find myself on a thread where he was also active, tripping over each other and, in some respects, showed signs of having the same sense of humour. For example, when he was banned from here for a few days, I wrote a spoof obituary for him. It's here https://www.englishforum.ch/general-...forgotten.html. (and may now be more appropriate than then). It was, as some may see, an attempt at literary exercise where a number of editors where contributing to a draft obituary, some throwing in irreverent comments. Something like you would expect if you published a draft obituary on the EF and asked for comments. Anyway, at least he enjoyed it afterwards, although I also got a few red reps from others for it. I wouldn't repeat anything similar. For one thing, such things would no longer fit in with the Forum culture of today. For another, I have now better things to do with my time. Also, I never met him in real life. I had considered contacting him once when I was doing bike tour which took me past Walensee. But then I remembered a post he wrote when he was teasing a newbie here about the risk of eating long pork, and thought better of it. Unfortunately, I won't now be able to find that post, now all his work has been anonymised. Sad indeed.
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  #182  
Old 06.02.2020, 13:56
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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Oh well, that is at least good news that he is alive and kicking.
Alive, yes, kicking, not yet.

Tom
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  #183  
Old 06.02.2020, 15:19
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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...Mods, one of you has to give an explanation why 3 long-term, very active EF members that helped build EF to what it is (dubiously or not) have suddenly and concurrently disappeared. to even none of us that care. Or it will rebound, no doubt.
And why is that? I don't have an explanation. I'm not the one who requested the account deletion.

The users are the ones that chose to leave, and they have their reasons. I may not like that they've left, I might not understand why, and I may miss the posts, but at the end of the day, they're adults who make their own decisions.

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...Lots of weird vibes on here, strange fascination.

I can't imagine any of them giving EF another thought.
Me either. When you want to leave, you want to leave.

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3Wishes, I would like to make a case that you shouldnít kill this thread.
We are all in mourning and just need to work this through at our own pace.

The people here that care are all grown adults, have proved themselves by making a life outside of their home country.
They have been on this forum since decades, so are a part of the clockwork that has kept it going (mostly).
Okay for now, but we'll see how it goes. As these users are no longer members, all this talking about them and their reasons why they left is a bit off since they're not here to explain - and they don't need to explain anything to anyone.

All this hand-wringing is a bit frustrating for me, tbh. The whole reason we asked users to stop logging in or request a ban (instead of account deletion) was precisely to avoid this type of situation. Loads of threads now don't make sense because thousands of posts are attributed to Guest, and because one no longer can search for posts by the person that left. A ban, username change, password change, etc. can all be effective ways of "leaving" without putting holes in the Forum.

I personally don't see why they chose to delete instead of stop logging in or requesting a ban but again, their choice and I respect it.
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  #184  
Old 06.02.2020, 15:32
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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......... can all be effective ways of "leaving" without putting holes in the Forum.

I personally don't see why they chose to delete instead of stop logging in or requesting a ban but again, their choice and I respect it.
Maybe .. It's a bit like when you're a little kid, playing football in the park with a big group of your pals.
Suddenly you don't like something, you get annoyed, it's your ball, you pick it up and leave. screw the rest of them.

I'm sure it's a very grown up reason .. but just maybe.
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  #185  
Old 06.02.2020, 15:42
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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The users are the ones that chose to leave, and they have their reasons. I may not like that they've left, I might not understand why, and I may miss the posts, but at the end of the day, they're adults who make their own decisions.
.
Absolutely.

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I personally don't see why they chose to delete instead of stop logging in or requesting a ban but again, their choice and I respect it.
This too. Having the option to delete one's account is a sign of respect for the member as individual. Nobody should be or is obligated to care about this forum or its content or how neat is to follow once they've made this decision to have their account deleted and want to have nothing to do with it from a certain point, once it's clear it does not represent their views anymore, whatever those are. Thank goodness EB understood we have this right. There was a time when it wasn't even an option, correct me if I'm wrong.

And frankly it's still pretty easy to follow a thread even if there's not always evident who made certain posts.
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  #186  
Old 06.02.2020, 16:39
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

In writing here, I’m not quoting, but replying to a general sense of “hush, now,” that I seem to gather from several of the posts so far.

Okay, admittedly, some of those now using the forum don’t even know which users left, and of those who do know who they were, some genuinely don’t miss the departed anyway, and really don’t care about their reasons for having gone. Fair enough.

Some of those who remain will shrug and may be able to say, honestly, something like:
“Oh, well, they’re gone. Now I’ll wash my hands and life will go on as if I’d never been part of whatever may have helped (or hurt) them, since their having been here, or not, is entirely neutral to me. Now they’re gone I’ll efficiently delete any connection I used to feel towards them. Or put it firmly in the past, and won’t think about them, or their leaving, again. They’re gone, that’s that, no looking back.”
Some may be able to do that. But there are clearly a number of people here who are shocked and/or sad and even grieving at the loss.

And it seems to me perfectly natural to be sharing our thoughts on that loss, or those memories, or our gratitude, with one another. This, here, where we know one another online (and some do, and some don’t, also know one other in Real Life) is the right place to have these conversations.

It seems very odd, to me, to suggest that those of us who are still here ought not to continue to express what we think and feel, just because those who left obviously aren’t replying, on the thread, themselves. Those who've left may be still reading what we write, or a user they trust may be passing parts of what is written here on to them, or they may be far away in another territory (virtual or real), shaking the dust off their sandals. We don’t know, and yes, that’s their right, of course. But no matter where they are, we are still here, and in facing our loss, we are participating in matters of this forum. This is not fluff, and there is no reason to hush.

The users who left recently (Swisstree, Sangrounder, Dougal’s Breakfast, edot and StirB… or are there more?) were amongst those who participated for a very long time, and who contributed a great deal on this forum. I am grateful to them.

I do not believe that, one fine morning they got up and, apropos of nothing, each said:
“Well, today’s a new day, and this is suddenly the end of my connection to EF and that’s that. I’m quickly going to write a brief mail asking for my profile to be deleted, and then I’m going to walk away without telling anyone why I’m doing so. Moreover, although the forum was significant to me for several years, from this minute it’s never again going to cross my mind.”
No, I just don’t think that’s likely or realistic.

While those who left (and those who may yet be considering leaving) surely each has his/her own reasons and a right to those, the implication that no-one knows or can surmise their reasons, or that those reasons are of no relevance to those of us who stay, sounds to me like sweeping matters under the carpet.

Last edited by doropfiz; 06.02.2020 at 17:00.
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  #187  
Old 06.02.2020, 17:04
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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In writing here........those of us who are still here ought not to continue to express what we think and feel.....

I do not believe that, one fine morning they got up and, apropos of nothing, each said:
ďWell, todayís a new day, and this is suddenly the end of my connection to EF and thatís that. Iím quickly going to write a brief mail asking for my profile to be deleted, and then Iím going to walk away without telling anyone why Iím doing so. Moreover, although the forum was significant to me for several years, from this minute itís never again going to cross my mind.Ē
No, I just donít think thatís likely or realistic....
what do you think happened then?
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  #188  
Old 06.02.2020, 17:05
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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........But there are clearly a number of people here who are shocked and/or sad and even grieving at the loss.


.... I do not believe that, one fine morning they got up and, apropos of nothing, each said: ......
No, I just don’t think that’s likely or realistic.
Really .. Grieving ? Maybe I'm just harsh and heartless but they were strangers on the internet, never met them, didn't know them, don't know anything about them.
Some may have posted a lot, some may have posted good content.. But grieving.. Nooooo! (they're not even dead?)
PS : I didn't grieve when princess Diana died either :-)
----

Of course they didn't just get up one morning and decide to {individually} leave. If was a coordinated decision.
Good for them, they made a choice and followed it through.
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  #189  
Old 06.02.2020, 17:11
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

lots of the very old timers do actually know each other in real life, there was a time when ef'ers used to meet up socially quite regularly, we have some pretty close friends made on here, been to weddings, births, got pissed (many times) together etc etc, of course we still communicate outside of EF but its pretty sad when they decide the very site that bought people together is no longer relevant or even interesting to them
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  #190  
Old 06.02.2020, 17:25
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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lots of the very old timers do actually know each other in real life, there was a time when ef'ers used to meet up socially quite regularly, we have some pretty close friends made on here, been to weddings, births, got pissed (many times) together etc etc, of course we still communicate outside of EF but its pretty sad when they decide the very site that bought people together is no longer relevant or even interesting to them
As you say, those who know each other will still know each other though and still go for a pint regardless.

I dunno, 90% of EF is totally uninteresting to me, that's why I missed nearly all of the controversy, it happened in threads I didn't even open.

It's different things for different people.. A dating site, a sales platform, Q&A platform, discussion room, moaning platform.. whatever.

The discussion part didn't / doesn't work though, somebody doesn't always need to be right in a discussion.
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  #191  
Old 06.02.2020, 17:42
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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...somebody doesn't always need to be right in a discussion.
That's where you're wrong.
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  #192  
Old 06.02.2020, 17:50
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

Long time poster here whoís planning on sticking around.

I do miss the sharp wit of some past posters and am disappointed that I no longer can spar words with them but I donít grieve their leaving. However, if they were to die, that would be another story.
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  #193  
Old 06.02.2020, 17:52
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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what do you think happened then?
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... its pretty sad when they decide the very site that bought people together is no longer relevant or even interesting to them
...or is too hurtful, or too aggressive, or too one-sided, or that the distribution of power is too uneven, or that it is too sad or annoying to watch as some people crush others, or that the "beat up a newby" dance is too silly, or that it is disspiriting to find the same-old, same-old pattern of some trying to help, some others trying to discuss pros and cons of a topic, while yet others persist in obtuseness or nastiness or haughtiness, apparently incapable or unwilling to see how destructive some of their remarks and approaches to discourse can be or, worse, possibly even to care about the effects of what the inflict upon others, and then there's the risk that those who try to stem the negative parts make themselves vulnerable to further rounds of put-downs.

It could be any or all of that, different parts of it to different users.

It is, I believe, at least some of that which drives people away, not only those who have overtly left, but also others who just turned and walked away after years (or in some cases merely a few weeks) of watching the posts that inflict pain or stir contention for contention's sake, or brag or humiliate, and I know that some users concluded that it is preferable not to be involved in such negativity (any longer).

However, as Roegner said, a lot goes on in the background. Not only offensive private mails. I know that a lot of good, helpful, kind support is in the background, being given and received by people who take their conversation of the public forum and into private correspondence. Some of those go on to meet in Real Life, but for others, their link to each other is still the Forum only. I'm deeply grateful for some of the connections I've known in both these ways.

Last edited by doropfiz; 06.02.2020 at 18:03.
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  #194  
Old 06.02.2020, 18:05
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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Really .. Grieving ? Maybe I'm just harsh and heartless but they were strangers on the internet, never met them, didn't know them, don't know anything about them.
Some may have posted a lot, some may have posted good content.. But grieving.. Nooooo!
For you, no. But yes, for some, grieving. I think that part of the reason for this lies in that very good support that is going on in the background.

And some users participate in the Forum because they are lonely, far away from home, perhaps a bit out of their depth in a new country and in a language they don't [yet] command, and they need advice. Or even after having been here for years, turn a corner in their life and find themselves facing new aspects of Life In Switzerland that they need to learn about. They cannot get that help from their friends back home, because they don't understand how it feels to be here, floating, as it were, and working hard to get oriented and to learn how to run one's life. They (and to some extent many or all of us, in one way or another) need people who live here to explain how the Swiss world ticks. And in that sense, for some people the Forum becomes, at some level, more or less intensely so, and perhaps only casually, a kind of substitute family. Then, even if a distant cousin leaves, it still constitutes a gap in the fabric.

Last edited by doropfiz; 06.02.2020 at 20:17.
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  #195  
Old 06.02.2020, 18:22
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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Of course they didn't just get up one morning and decide to {individually} leave. It was a coordinated decision.
No, it wasn't.

Tom
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  #196  
Old 06.02.2020, 18:32
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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Of course they didn't just get up one morning and decide to {individually} leave. If was a coordinated decision.
Good for them, they made a choice and followed it through.
You seem to know an awful lot about them and their motives considering you purport not to know any of them and donít follow 90% of the forum.

Itís amazing how everybody suddenly becomes an expert when this sort of thing happens.
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Old 06.02.2020, 18:47
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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You seem to know an awful lot about them and their motives considering you purport not to know any of them and donít follow 90% of the forum.

Itís amazing how everybody suddenly becomes an expert when this sort of thing happens.
I think it's very funny: speculation and obsession all while attempting nonchalance.
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Old 06.02.2020, 19:02
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

I also think it is good to spend some time analysing the reasons for the demise of the forum, although it is difficult, sadly, to imagine any active measures which could improve the situation.

Interesting, though, is that some people felt a need to go out with an bang and not simply just fade away.

In a business environment when, for example, a number of key people from a specific department suddenly vanish together, the department manager would feel obliged to have an explanation ready which (s)he could provide to the director if required. That if only to deflect the accusation that it was anything to do with that department manager's particular management style. Those reasons would have to better than simply "sic transit gloria mundi - that is the way of the world".

This is not a business environment, there is no obvious responsibility structure, moderators are not employees (or at least don't get paid). They do not fear being hauled up before an angry director to explain failure so why should they care. In fact, what motivates them for this role is a mystery to me.

Anyway, it is not a matter of moderation. That can be only a minor irritation. The reality is that the forum has outlived its main usefulness. Less English-only speakers, better sources of information in English even from official sources, other and better platforms for discussions and meet-ups etc. Google translate, for all its failures, has also contributed here. What is left is a miscellaneous collection of ex-pats from the pre-facebook generation, diverse misfits, a few newbies who stumble on here by accident (before being torn to shreds) and maybe a few people who are on their way to clocking up 10 mandatory posts to sell something.

I personally would not make such a dramatic gesture of having my identity expunged from the forum but that is partly my own personal philosophy of keeping all options open, that is not burning bridges behind me, and also due to my recognition that no one worthy of being impressed by such a gesture remains.

I'll continue looking in from time to time when there is nothing else to do. I'll contribute if I have specific information that can help. But that is about it from me.
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Old 06.02.2020, 19:12
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

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And frankly it's still pretty easy to follow a thread eben if there's not always evident who made certain posts.
I can easily pick out 2 of these members based on red - reps that I did not understand (they now appear as N/A) in my EF Control Panel. Always if it was in a discussion. I didn’t care, as I also have another life (thanks to all the other valuable info sieved-out from EF over the past years)

But that was enough to put me off posting useful info. Just one member I can‘t associate with this.

I doubt that the „insular“ UK mentality (as others have previously mentioned) is the cause of current feelings. I do know that this Forum is viewed as a very valuable resource amongst many of our banking work colleagues, from many locations settling here such as India, for example. And I‘m sure many more.

It is a shame though, and probably not a good sign for whoever owns this joint, that so many members (good or bad) that provided a part of the engine that kept EF going since the last decade or so are absconding in their masses. And they all know their worth.

Either the Forum needs a complete overhaul, including the platform, a massive (good) input from regular “newer“ members, plus compensated mods etc. or I sadly can‘t see it surviving in this day and age.
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  #200  
Old 06.02.2020, 19:29
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Re: Mixed messages: EF deletion of posts

I think that it's all down to Russian Bots trying to diffuse Trump and Brexit.

Tom
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