can moderator cancel the "negative reputations" given to me by 2 members?

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Traubert
	the 'l' has its usual English sound. In short, pronounced 'solda' Attachment 141518

Yeah, I can read phonetics. That's good ol' Jones. British.

[Traubert]

	Quote:	MusicChick
	Yeah, I can read phonetics. That's good ol' Jones. British.

Jones' phonetics dictionary has resolved many a conflict in my family. Mother was a professor of English, so as children we were forever being corrected (and she still does it, only with more subtlety)

[RufusB]

Sold-uh.


Jones. Takes me back. Always liked the word dipthong.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Traubert
	Jones' phonetics dictionary has resolved many a conflict in my family. Mother was a professor of English, so as children we were forever being corrected (and she still does it, only with more subtlety)

I always apologize to my people for having to deal with a teacher

Actually, I try not to correct. I give an efficient look.

[JackieH]

	Quote:	Traubert
	Jones' phonetics dictionary has resolved many a conflict in my family. Mother was a professor of English, so as children we were forever being corrected (and she still does it, only with more subtlety)

Ah phonetics, hated it at school. Why use phonetics when you have good ears?

And phonetics do not account for accents and regional variations and nuances- and across the pond distortion either.

One of my first Summer school students had been studying English at Rouen University- she could string two words together, and comprehension was so poor. Her Oral exam after her first year consisted of reading a text written in phonetics (not just part of the oral exam, but 100%). After 3 weeks with me and 5 other students, she could discuss anything and hold her own- we certainly did not work with phonetics.

[Traubert]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Ah phonetics, hated it at school. Why use phonetics when you have good ears? And phonetics do not account for accents and regional variations and nuances- and across the pond distortion either.

I'm deaf.

Phonetics is simply relating to speech sounds and doesn't dictate pronunciation, whether received or regional. Swiss German is written 'phonetically'.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	Traubert
	I'm deaf. Phonetics is simply relating to speech sounds and doesn't dictate pronunciation, whether received or regional. Swiss German is written 'phonetically'.

Love it, love IPA, love Jones.

It is very close to music.

Although I really regret losing Lancashire accent to horrendous 'NYC speak'.

[JackieH]

Clearly, if you are deaf, it can be very useful- but how do you know which sound a phonetic symbol represents?

Don't hink it is possible to compare Swiss German phonetics with Jones however.

Accents, regionalisms or cross pond variations change the sound totally- hence classical phonetic representation is of little use.

[RufusB]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Accents, regionalisms or cross pond variations change the sound totally- hence classical phonetic representation is of little use.

Phonetic representation is very useful. It uses standardised sounds - phonemes - and not whole words to show pronounciation. There is obviously the "standard" but then those same phonemes can be used to represent any pronunciation you like: glottal stops, dropped hs etc etc.

Phoneme being a unit of sound.

[Traubert]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Clearly, if you are deaf, it can be very useful- but how do you know which sound a phonetic symbol represents? Don't hink it is possible to compare Swiss German phonetics with Jones however. Accents, regionalisms or cross pond variations change the sound totally- hence classical phonetic representation is of little use.

You are confusing phonetics with the functional notional approach to language teaching, or perhaps you are confusing it with Received Pronunciation.

I am a fan of functional notional language teaching, and think that anyone who tries to teach a language through phonetics alone is not going to be very successful.

Also, Daniel Jones did not invent phonetics itself, but rather was one of the founders of the International Phonetics Association. Phonetics is a branch of linguistics. You have an overly simplified understanding of what phonetics is, almost akin to saying 'Why teach algebra when you have 10 good fingers with which to count?'

How would you explain without sound the difference between regional dialects without phonetics? Phonetics does not tell you how something should be pronounced, but rather how it is pronounced, and how the sound is made in the mouth.

[JackieH]

Very interesting. Although I have a BEd Hons Degree in Mod Langs- I am not a linguist. I was taught phonetics at school, as an alternative to communication and comprehension. Very dry, and put me off forever (Switzerland in the 50s and 60s).

Time to return to better understanding however- as it is an interesting subject. During my Degree in the UK, we did not study phonetics, and the whole course was based on effective communication, and an understanding of different francophonic cultures and politics, as the medium. Phonetics is never used to teach French, German or Italian- but only English. I am lucky to have good ears- and a keen interest in the practical and cultural aspects of languages- rather than academic performance.

As for algebra ...I was told it would be terribly useful for my future- and at 70, I am still waiting : never ever used it after my Bac/matu exam- and much prefer my 10 fingers, for sure

[roegner]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Phonetics is never used to teach French, German or Italian- but only English.

Maybe not at universities in the UK, but definitely used in the Netherlands if you study languages.

[JackieH]

Yes, but is it ever used to teach other languages, like French, German, Italian?

[roegner]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Yes, but is it ever used to teach other languages, like French, German, Italian?

Yes, mandatory course in the first year (or at least it was when I went to uni)

[MusicChick]

IPA and phonetics is used in all foreign language teaching, where I am from. Even in native language teaching masters/bc.

[JackieH]

Interesting- I always considered phonetics to be linked to English teaching only.

I studied German and French (my MT) at Uni in the UK, and phonetics not touched upon. Same for A'Level Italian. Between the age of 19 to 29, I just picked up English by 100% immersion, without a single lesson. I then did 0'Level German, just to refresh- and then did a B.Ed.Hons Degree in Environmental Studies and German, with French as 3rd subject. No phonetics at all. Same when I studied for Italian A'Level just before we moved here.

But truly, as fascinating as the topic is- we have diverged so totally from the OP- and this conversation should continue elsewhere if anyone wished. Seriously, back to OP.

[fatmanfilms]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Interesting- I always considered phonetics to be linked to English teaching only. I studied German and French (my MT) at Uni in the UK, and phonetics not touched upon. Same for A'Level Italian.

I would suspect the UK is worse at teaching languages than any other country in Europe with the possible exception of France.

[Belgianmum]

	Quote:	JackieH
	Interesting- I always considered phonetics to be linked to English teaching only. I studied German and French (my MT) at Uni in the UK, and phonetics not touched upon. Same for A'Level Italian. Between the age of 19 to 29, I just picked up English by 100% immersion, without a single lesson. I then did 0'Level German, just to refresh- and then did a B.Ed.Hons Degree in Environmental Studies and German, with French as 3rd subject. No phonetics at all. Same when I studied for Italian A'Level just before we moved here.

T did quite a bit of phonetics in French at school in both Belgium and Switzerland.
He hated it.

[JackieH]

Again, interesting. When I did the Bac/matu here, we studied phonetics for English but never for German, and never heard of phonetics used to teach French either- not here, not in the UK.

As said, back to OP.

[MusicChick]

	Quote:	fatmanfilms
	I would suspect the UK is worse at teaching languages than any other country in Europe with the possible exception of France.

I would really like to disagree with you. But I don't think I can.