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  #1  
Old 14.06.2009, 08:28
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Effectiveness of banning

Hi

I recently observed that some members who were banned for breaking rules (possibly cheating not sure though) just registered again with a new login id and continued operating and it was business as usual. I brought this to the notice of the moderator but it did not work.

The only loss to the banned person was that from a member he became a newbie.

So my question is : Am I correct in assuming that it is only the ID that is banned and not the person. And unless he breaks a rule again with this easy-to-acquire ID he can continue. If this occurence is brought to the notice of the moderator, can he not ban him again with immediate effect but require further proof of misdemeanour with this ID.
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Old 14.06.2009, 08:31
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

It's certainly possible to block an IP address if someone is creating new accounts. Additionally, EF has a thing where if there's more than one account per IP, then the mods are notified and you get an email saying to explain or have the account removed.
Although this probably doesn't work if you're able to change the IP address you're using.
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Old 14.06.2009, 08:42
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

How could you determine all of this?
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Old 14.06.2009, 08:45
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

i no u fellas are all real cleva wid computers and stuff (NZ accent probably lost on most of you though), and not knowing the circumstances of why said persons were banned (maybe they put up pictures of Mrs Boris' misspent youth?), is it really necessary to ban to that degree?
effort +- effect..
i am sure moderators have more to do with their time.. kayaking.. making reinsurance companies increase their net present value etc
whatever.. i think i have spent more than my 2 cents worth here anyway..
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Old 14.06.2009, 08:54
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

Isn't it ilegal to do forum policing, in Switzerland, on a Sunday?

Last edited by i-b-deborah; 14.06.2009 at 20:44.
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Old 14.06.2009, 09:03
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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So my question is : Am I correct in assuming that it is only the ID that is banned and not the person.
In effect it's the person who is banned, in reality, if they use a different IP address, user name, location etc, it would be very difficult to know that they are one and the same person.

If you know certainly that a banned person has signed up again (or is using 2 identities) then, with proof, I'm sure the mods will do something about it.

In the case you are talking about, did you have proof, or is it just a suspicion?
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Old 14.06.2009, 09:44
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

It was easy to detect that it was the same person.

1) Same set of goods with exactly the same specifications
2) Same location (address) of delivery of goods

Many other circumstantial evidences which may sound foolish if not described correctly.

The moderator did not ask me to prove the IDs did belong to the same person. Instead I was asked if I had any specific grievances/complaints against him. Hence I assume every fresh ID requires a fresh set of rule-breaking to be eligible for a ban.
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Old 14.06.2009, 09:45
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

It is the person who is banned. Occassionally it takes a while to really be sure its the same person who has signed in with a new forum handle.

As I happen to know the mods very well, I can assure you that ALL reports including yours are investigated by the mods and appropriate action based on their investigations are taken.

In the case that the mods are unsure of such alligations, they may have to observe the person who has been reported for a while before being able to decide unless of course solid evidence is submitted with the report.
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Old 14.06.2009, 10:10
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

Thanks Lynn ... I am happy that each case is thoroughly investigated.

But my fear is that the time of creation of a new ID is significantly lower than the time required for an investigation to be completed and subsequent banning. This time is sufficient for the guys to continue the same activities for which they were banned. This course of action is the most comfortable to a banned member. Even if it is proved at a later stage that it indeed was the same person, what prevents him from using a third ID ?

In my case, the evidence was crystal clear but it still required an investigation (it is more than 15 days now).

Can we not shift the onus of proving their identities to the banned member ? I feel there is nothing wrong in this approach especially if it works for the benefit of all.

To use an anology, if I report to the police about some immigrant having no passport, then the police would directly ask the person to furnish documents which is the easiest way possible. If it turns out to be a false alarm, they can possibly if required turn their attention to the complainant.
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Old 14.06.2009, 10:17
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

Why is this bothering you so much?
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Thanks Lynn ... I am happy that each case is thoroughly investigated.

But my fear is that the time of creation of a new ID is significantly lower than the time required for an investigation to be completed and subsequent banning. This time is sufficient for the guys to continue the same activities for which they were banned. This course of action is the most comfortable to a banned member. Even if it is proved at a later stage that it indeed was the same person, what prevents him from using a third ID ?

In my case, the evidence was crystal clear but it still required an investigation (it is more than 15 days now).

Can we not shift the onus of proving their identities to the banned member ? I feel there is nothing wrong in this approach especially if it works for the benefit of all.

To use an anology, if I report to the police about some immigrant having no passport, then the police would directly ask the person to furnish documents which is the easiest way possible. If it turns out to be a false alarm, they can possibly if required turn their attention to the complainant.
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Old 14.06.2009, 10:17
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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Can we not shift the onus of proving their identities to the banned member ? I feel there is nothing wrong in this approach especially if it works for the benefit of all.
As an American, I'm a strong believer in "innocent until proven guilty." ;-) (ok, ok, leave the Gitmo comments at home, I'm just joking!)

Seriously, though - are you really suggesting that we assume someone is guilty of a "crime" simply because you think two different IDs relate to the same person? I'm rather thankful the mods don't take that approach; it would definitely be discouraging to have such an online police state.

The mods do good work; especially considering that they do it - to my knowledge - out of the generosity of their hearts and not for pay. Let them take their time and get it right. Better to let a few a misdemeanors slide than to start banning people unjustly.
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Old 14.06.2009, 10:28
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

Yup mods work for free... buy them a drink when you next see them at an event

Alfred, I am aware of the situation you are referring to. I have to say that I personally have been monitoring it along with the mods. There are certain resons why the decision was made not to ban the reported user just yet.

When someone signs up again or uses the same pc to sign in under a different username, the mods are automatically informed of this and an automated pm is sent to the user to ask why they have multiple accounts. All of the married folks who use the same pc at home to log into EF will know what I'm talking about for sure, along with all the others in the same situation. This PM allows the users to explain why they are using the same pc with more than one account. There are legitimate reasons such as the one I mentioned above. EF prefers to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe what they say UNLESS its an obvious lie (trust me, the mods can sniff the brown stuff a mile off and do know when you're trying to pull a fast one).

However, in questionable situations the mods have to first monitor the situation before making a decision. While I sympathise and appreciate your concern, I ask you to just bear in mind that the mods do this for the sake of the community in their free time with no pay and often endless insults/antagonism and complaints. I would therefore ask you to simply have some patience with the mods and believe me when I say your complaint has been heard, is very valid and we are keeping an eye on the situation.
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Old 14.06.2009, 11:41
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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Thanks Lynn ... I am happy that each case is thoroughly investigated.

But my fear is that the time of creation of a new ID is significantly lower than the time required for an investigation to be completed and subsequent banning. This time is sufficient for the guys to continue the same activities for which they were banned. This course of action is the most comfortable to a banned member. Even if it is proved at a later stage that it indeed was the same person, what prevents him from using a third ID ?

In my case, the evidence was crystal clear but it still required an investigation (it is more than 15 days now).

Can we not shift the onus of proving their identities to the banned member ? I feel there is nothing wrong in this approach especially if it works for the benefit of all.

To use an anology, if I report to the police about some immigrant having no passport, then the police would directly ask the person to furnish documents which is the easiest way possible. If it turns out to be a false alarm, they can possibly if required turn their attention to the complainant.
Why do you care so much... how is this affecting you exactly? Just curious.

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Seriously, though - are you really suggesting that we assume someone is guilty of a "crime" simply because you think two different IDs relate to the same person? I'm rather thankful the mods don't take that approach; it would definitely be discouraging to have such an online police state.
To be fair it's often (8 or 9 times out of 10) blatantly obvious when someone signs up with another username. The use the same details or have the same posting style, it's generally easy to spot.
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Old 18.06.2009, 17:14
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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To be fair it's often (8 or 9 times out of 10) blatantly obvious when someone signs up with another username. The use the same details or have the same posting style, it's generally easy to spot.






This is not the case in most of forums in teh Interwebs.

I am member of some forums where the mods don't check for duplicate accounts.

The members create alternative acconts just for the lulz ( called sock puppets ), giving the alternative users different personalities etc.

Other members try to guess who is who without success... and this goes on and on..
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Old 18.06.2009, 17:25
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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Can we not shift the onus of proving their identities to the banned member ? I feel there is nothing wrong in this approach especially if it works for the benefit of all.
Technically almost impossible without incurring significant cost. Your asking each new member to prove that they aren't a banned member in disguise. There's hundreds of members.
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Old 18.06.2009, 17:32
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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Technically almost impossible without incurring significant cost. Your asking each new member to prove that they aren't a banned member in disguise. There's hundreds of members.
Actually 32,176..
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Old 18.06.2009, 17:34
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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Technically almost impossible without incurring significant cost. Your asking each new member to prove that they aren't a banned member in disguise. There's hundreds of members.
No, there are 30,000+ members and you don't seem to have understood the OP's point of view. His point was, why should mods valuable time be spent on monitoring the dubious cases, that too when it is done for gratis, when the onus could be shifted to those dubious members themselves to prove they are Okay.

Now I don't know which of the two approaches is easier for the mods to handle, but what amazes me is the number of responses questioning the motivation of the OP. Seems he just tried to assist the mods by pointing out some dubious case. I thought such behavior is to be encouraged
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Old 18.06.2009, 17:39
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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No, there are 30,000+ members and you don't seem to have understood the OP's point of view. His point was, why should mods valuable time be spent on monitoring the dubious cases, that too when it is done for gratis, when the onus could be shifted to those dubious members themselves to prove they are Okay.

Now I don't know which of the two approaches is easier for the mods to handle, but what amazes me is the number of responses questioning the motivation of the OP. Seems he just tried to assist the mods by pointing out some dubious case. I thought such behavior is to be encouraged
Excuse me, but I have understood what was being asked thank you very much.

I was providing useful information to the debate by using my understanding of computers to point out that the idea presented by the OP would in fact be difficult to implement in a newsgroup that is run on a charitable basis. And to re-emphasize my point as it clearly hasnt been understood, saying it should be "up to dubious members to prove they are ok" is about as realistic as asking for flying pigs. I register as user Alan23. Ok, how do you know whether im dubious or not ? how do I prove it ?

Mike
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Old 18.06.2009, 18:15
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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I was providing useful information to the debate by using my understanding of computers to point out that the idea presented by the OP would in fact be difficult to implement in a newsgroup that is run on a charitable basis.
I never questioned the usefulness of your post. I was expressing wonder at the posts by i-deborah who seemed so curiosu to know why the OP was bothered so much...adding nothing useful to the discussion IMO. If we keep seeing such posts no one will feel motivated to point out dubious cases. yes, some people feel more bothered about malpractice, so why discourage them is we aren't so bothered? was my point.

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And to re-emphasize my point as it clearly hasnt been understood, saying it should be "up to dubious members to prove they are ok" is about as realistic as asking for flying pigs. I register as user Alan23. Ok, how do you know whether im dubious or not ? how do I prove it ?

Mike
I don't know which case these guys are talking about, but Lynn and a few others know. I am not denying that in general there is a huge amount of subjectivity and discretion is involved in sorting the dubious and non-dubious ones, but apprently there are cases that are quite obvious, like this was
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In my case, the evidence was crystal clear but it still required an investigation (it is more than 15 days now).

Can we not shift the onus of proving their identities to the banned member ? I feel there is nothing wrong in this approach especially if it works for the benefit of all.

To use an anology, if I report to the police about some immigrant having no passport, then the police would directly ask the person to furnish documents which is the easiest way possible. If it turns out to be a false alarm, they can possibly if required turn their attention to the complainant.
Again, I don't know which procedure is superior. My main point is just that don't kill someone's initiative for the heck of it.
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Old 18.06.2009, 18:25
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Re: Effectiveness of banning

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Isn't it ilegal to do forum policing, in Switzerland, on a Sunday?
And if you think hard, what were you doing when you wrote this post, presumably on a Sunday, despite knowing the Swiss laws?
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