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Old 16.03.2011, 18:05
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Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

So there I was, rushing to the platform from which my train was about to leave, when a couple of burly lads quite literally moved me out of the way (not just pushed, but actually lifted and shifted me aside) with a "Sorry, sorry, sorry" as they ran to get their train.

I was a bit miffed, but had to catch my own train, so I just muttered an obscenity under my breath and hurried along.

Less than a minute later, as the lights over the doors of my train began to flash, there was a commotion as these same lads piled on, ran upstairs and installed themselves in the seats around me.

You can imagine how delighted I was to see them again, but my indignation soon turned to fascination as I tried to work out what language they were speaking, as it was clear from their few sentences of German that they weren't Swiss.

It soon became clear that these lads were Albanian. Upon realising this, I instantly felt better disposed towards them. I've never met an Albanian I didn't like, and have a longstanding interest in their country and the Balkan peninsula in general. They're alright, them Albanians, you see...

It was only after I'd got off the train at my own station that I started thinking about my reaction to the situation. Had these lads been Italian or French or German, I'd have sat alongside them, stony faced with rage at their insolence in pushing me around. But they weren't Italian or French or German: they were Albanian. My attitude towards them and their behaviour was coloured by who they were, not what they had done. I was prepared to allow more, to forgive more, purely due to an accident of birth.

On reflection, I feel a little bit ashamed about this - but should I?

Is it still bigotry if you choose to take an irrational like to someone on the basis of his ethnicity?

What do you think?
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Old 16.03.2011, 18:09
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

You are fond of young Albanian boys ?
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Old 16.03.2011, 18:11
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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Is it still bigotry if you choose to take an irrational like to someone on the basis of his ethnicity?

What do you think?
Yes... me liking swedish blond girls messes the chances of the rest.. so it's some sort of bigotry by omission...
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Old 16.03.2011, 18:12
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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with a "Sorry, sorry, sorry" as they ran to get their train.


What do you think?
Well...... they sounded quite apologetic to me.
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Old 16.03.2011, 19:12
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

I think on one hand it is slightly bigoted DB.
You cant really partition one group of people away from another like that.
Then again I do sympathize with the manhandling and jostling action there.
But no, you shouldn't really think like that.

I had a work colleague recently go off on one about the Turkish but I lived and worked in Turkey for 3 years and met some of the friendliest and genuine people to date.
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Old 16.03.2011, 19:44
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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I had a work colleague recently go off on one about the Turkish but I lived and worked in Turkey for 3 years and met some of the friendliest and genuine people to date.
Having lived in Turkey, therefore, do you think you'd be more inclined to overlook poor behaviour from someone after you'd discovered he was Turkish, or not?

You see, that's my problem. As soon as I realised the lads were Albanian, it didn't bother me that they'd pushed me around - I was biased towards them for being from a nation I like.

Is that still a bad thing?
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Old 16.03.2011, 19:46
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

A very interesting question DB. Still, if you are going to be bigoted positively, it is better than being so negatively.
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Old 16.03.2011, 20:13
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

I don't think you've understood the game right. I lived in Denmark for 6 months and quite enjoyed it. But if I meet a Dane then it is my duty to tell them that Denmark is cold, wet, gray and generally unpleasant and full of unfriendly people. Otherwise it just isn't cricket is it?
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Old 16.03.2011, 20:28
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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Having lived in Turkey, therefore, do you think you'd be more inclined to overlook poor behaviour from someone after you'd discovered he was Turkish, or not?

You see, that's my problem. As soon as I realised the lads were Albanian, it didn't bother me that they'd pushed me around - I was biased towards them for being from a nation I like.

Is that still a bad thing?
It is not a bad thing. I think it is because you got to know their culture and you know that they didn't mean bad.

It is same for me. I know well the culture and the mentality, which make me think twice about some behavior. And I may accept more or less depending of what it is about...
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Old 16.03.2011, 20:36
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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Having lived in Turkey, therefore, do you think you'd be more inclined to overlook poor behaviour from someone after you'd discovered he was Turkish, or not?
No, I probably wouldn't overlook it at all. but your right and I understand what your saying about whether it's right or not to think like that. Truth be known I kinda think the same way as you sometimes and I berate myself for it too.
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Old 16.03.2011, 20:53
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

do you feel more forgiving towards them because you feel you understand what their behavior means or doesnt mean or is it just simply because you happen to like albanians (i happen to like em too, by the way ).
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Old 21.03.2011, 12:46
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

Quote:

Is it still bigotry if you choose to take an irrational like to someone on the basis of his ethnicity?

What do you think?
Yes. Must be difficult for this not to spill over into the classroom (favouritism). Training of teachers in the Rudolph Steiner schools includes an exercise with the self in putting aside sympathy and antipathy and letting the object of our antipathy/sympathy work on us without the barriers.

Tried this myself with an Albanian girl when working with refugees whom, on first impression, I found to be quite irritating. After some time I found myself relating to her on another basis and managed to get her full co-operation in doing jobs around the hostel. Have never seen anyone clean a toilet with so much love and the 3Fr. she earned she gave to her parents. I ended up being quite impressed and seeing qualities in her that weren't obvious at first.
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Old 21.03.2011, 12:59
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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Must be difficult for this not to spill over into the classroom (favouritism).
I have no problem with that at all.

I dislike all children equally.
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Old 21.03.2011, 13:02
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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I have no problem with that at all.

I dislike all children equally.
I thought you were mentioning the other day you might start a family? Without children?
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Old 21.03.2011, 13:07
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

Quote:
(...)
Is that still a bad thing?
No. Kind of paternal attitude (i.e forgiving for own kids and strict for other's kids). It can be also seen as positive discrimination. At the end I am not sure you are helping them with your attitude as they will not face similar tolerance from other passengers; they need to understand that it's not a proper behaviour. You are actually ideally positioned to "educate" them given your emotional link to albania.
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Old 21.03.2011, 13:12
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

I am not sure.

One one hand we create PC codes, in order to give fair chance to all, etc.

On the other, our brain naturally works on stereotypes. Even with PC behavior, most people just think it now, and don't say it. Doesn't mean our brains stop creating shortcuts and stereotypes.

Sometimes stereotypes are only a way to process experiences. So, what you basically wrote is "I had a good experience with Albanian kids so I don't expect anything bad and can take some roughness with having my mind open and tolerant", disregarding some common negative stereotypes that exist here, that concerns this particular culture.

We all think like this, to some extent. If those experiences are good, we tend to love everyone coming from that culture. If they are negative, and/or, we come from culture that happens to not really question the typical stereotypes and adheres to conformity, we are more prone to expect bad stuff from that culture, we assign guilt when there isn't one, we see them through a nasty prism. It does bug me when people do it. Especially smart folks, like my colleagues. I would never encourage this behavior, especially in a classroom setting, there is no excuse, kids pay for this. If the situation is positive, a kid can live with some undeserved praise absolutely alright, but to be judged negatively, because the teacher considers the kid's culture bad, it's just redneck.

So, I don't think it is bigotry, we are all prone to just simply like some cultures more than others for whatever reasons, why wouldn't we...It's when you don't give other cultures a fair chance and you act on very little experience, or aren't bothered to make more in order to fix some twisted attitude towards the negatively perceived cultures, it becomes bigoted.

So, you still thinking about your neighbor disliking Albanians?
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Old 21.03.2011, 13:16
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

Quote:
So there I was, rushing to the platform from which my train was about to leave, when a couple of burly lads quite literally moved me out of the way (not just pushed, but actually lifted and shifted me aside) with a "Sorry, sorry, sorry" as they ran to get their train.

I was a bit miffed, but had to catch my own train, so I just muttered an obscenity under my breath and hurried along.

Less than a minute later, as the lights over the doors of my train began to flash, there was a commotion as these same lads piled on, ran upstairs and installed themselves in the seats around me.

You can imagine how delighted I was to see them again, but my indignation soon turned to fascination as I tried to work out what language they were speaking, as it was clear from their few sentences of German that they weren't Swiss.

It soon became clear that these lads were Albanian. Upon realising this, I instantly felt better disposed towards them. I've never met an Albanian I didn't like, and have a longstanding interest in their country and the Balkan peninsula in general. They're alright, them Albanians, you see...

It was only after I'd got off the train at my own station that I started thinking about my reaction to the situation. Had these lads been Italian or French or German, I'd have sat alongside them, stony faced with rage at their insolence in pushing me around. But they weren't Italian or French or German: they were Albanian. My attitude towards them and their behaviour was coloured by who they were, not what they had done. I was prepared to allow more, to forgive more, purely due to an accident of birth.

On reflection, I feel a little bit ashamed about this - but should I?

Is it still bigotry if you choose to take an irrational like to someone on the basis of his ethnicity?

What do you think?
I am positively disposed towards Indians. I like their funny accents and that head bobbing thing and the fact that they can make a film where people die in horrible ways and yet they still include singing and dancing in it.

I like the Germans because they are straightforward and get things done.

Can't comment on the Swiss. Don't know enough of them.
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Old 21.03.2011, 13:23
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

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But they weren't Italian or French or German
I would have thought that obvious from
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"Sorry, sorry, sorry"
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What do you think?
Racist



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I thought you were mentioning the other day you might start a family? Without children?
Ah, but they'd be his children. A different kettle of fish altogether.
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Old 21.03.2011, 13:26
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

Dougal in which ways are Albanians 'alright'. I have never met any.

I did once live with a Serb and despite all my negative stereotypes he was an excellent fellow.
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Old 21.03.2011, 13:26
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Re: Is it still bigotry if it makes you think happy thoughts?

Wouldn't that be bigoted against French, Germans etc though?
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