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Old 22.08.2006, 19:31
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What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

I think a poll would not work in this context.

My mate believes it's ok for "personal use".... and may have some P2P "recent" movies and also have open PPV movies on certain satellite packages right now.

It's clearly not theft but of course it is somewhat breaching copyright. As it's a faceless crime, does that make it OK?



What do fellow FMs think about this?
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Old 22.08.2006, 19:43
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Quote:
I think a poll would not work in this context.

My mate believes it's ok for "personal use".... and may have some P2P "recent" movies and also have open PPV movies on certain satellite packages right now.

It's clearly not theft but of course it is somewhat breaching copyright. As it's a faceless crime, does that make it OK?

What do fellow FMs think about this?
Your "mate" should know that piracy is a crime and pirates go to jail. Didn't "they" try to link P2P networks to terrorism a while back? But where else is OBL going to get his favourite shows from?

My thoughts - DVD films are so cheap that they offer great value for money, especially when compared to the high price of a cinema ticket in Switzerland. Since they are so cheap - why bother to pirate it?

Now music on the other hand doesn't quite offer the same value proposition - the price is higher and you end up with a whole lot of content (other tracks) which are usually rubbish. How much does it cost to produce an album vs the cost of producing a movie?

I have no love for either the MPAA or the RIAA but if it was MTV's celebrity deathmatch I'd be cheering for the MPAA as the lesser of two very bad evils.

Using P2P to get TV series that you just can't get over here is another thing. Is this wrong? Well since there is no way to legally get these (unless you have access to a station which plays them) how else is one supposed to watch Prison Break (anyone else watching this? Great series)?

If the networks made their shows available for purchase online I'd line up to buy them for sure (if it was a reasonable price). They could make them available for download 1 week after the release. I don't want to wait ages for an entire season to come out on a huge box of DVDs which are then NOT reasonably priced. I did buy Band of Brothers - that was very reasonably priced and an excellent series!

Let's also not forget that without P2P films like "9/11 Loose Change" would probably have never seen the light of day. P2P networks help the idea spead - more people see it, and maybe if it ever came out in the cinema (an updated version) more people would go see it (since their friends might be talking about it).
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Old 22.08.2006, 19:43
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Home taping is killing music.

They've been saying for 30 years.

I lived in Damascus once and you couldn't buy genuine CDs - you had to go to a record store, where they'd have album covers, place your order and return in an hour. Hey Presto! A copied CD! For a Dollar!

I imagine there's not much money in being an official distributor there, but seeing as I buy more CDs/DVDs than I rip/burn here in CH, my utilitarian stance says: It's ok.

But I'm scared of lawyers, so please don't quote me
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Old 22.08.2006, 19:45
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

I think movies are the worst to download (and should not be), then music (which you should buy or try then buy), then things like tv series. To me it feels like a sliding scale, but in five years time we will probably all say hmm, that was a bit illegal, and we should have paid or not downloaded.

I think p2p will change once there are good options for paid content, like paid tv, paid movie downloading etc., i.e., if they can provide content that can rival that delivered through other channels.
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Old 22.08.2006, 19:46
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

My mate just told me that if he finds a good movie that he likes, he would buy it afterwards.

He's still looking for that bunny boiler movie, mind you

What about renting DVDs and copying them when you don't have time to watch them? He says that he only tends to watch them once.

Also he records DVDs from TV programmes to give to his family members who can't get the programmes - is that bad too?

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Old 22.08.2006, 20:38
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

I heard a comedian talk about downloads, saying:
- oh, those poor millionaires losing money!
- it's happened before - does anyone remember the great 'recording songs off the radio crisis'?

I agree it's theft and it's wrong, however another way to look at it (like illegal software) it to consider that the risk should be quantified and decide what is an acceptable level of illegal copying.

Blockbuster movies makes hundreds millions of dollars of profit. Crap movies don't. Studios live or die by making blockbusters. They don't die because of illegal copies.

In many cases, as Uncle Max said, there are places where you simly can't buy the discs, either because they aren't there or people in poor countries can't afford them. Also, in poor countries, broadband isn't available so my mates in the Ukraine buy a $2 copy of a DVD because they don't know what p2p downloads are.

If movie downloads were somehow made impossible, there might be an uplift in cinema ticket sales - but that wouldn't sell more DVD's. My guess is that people download movies for the following reasons:
- Outside the US, we can't wait to see the movie (although European releases are getting faster now)
- Can't find the movie to buy it/rent it
- Can't be bothered to go to the DVD rental place

As technology moves on, it's up to the producers to make original purchases more interesting.
- Like re-releasing VHS movies on DVD so we all had to buy our favourite movies again
- Or hey, re-releasing DVD movies on high definition disc
- Adding interesting special features so that we want to buy the complete disc

Overall, I don't think the movie producers should cry "foul" and try to shut down networks, I think they should get down to the business of making better products and find the channels to sell them.

=DM=
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Old 22.08.2006, 20:42
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

actually as we saw with Napster - close one method down and another one appears. I think also the P2P users are not actually "denying" revenue - it's mostly done by people who would not spend money on that product.

Also I do think it's more the younger generation; my mate know someone who's whole music collection is downloaded via WinMX. She's 19......in 5-10 years time, her disposable income will most likely see her buying CDs, DVDs, etc by the barrowload.

My mate is proud to say he has 500 DVDs and 1200 CDs so isn't truly a bad person.
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Old 22.08.2006, 20:44
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Quote:
My mate is proud to say he has 500 DVDs and 1200 CDs so isn't truly a bad person.
That'd be me, then :-)

=DM=
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Old 22.08.2006, 20:45
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Quote:
That'd be me, then :-)

=DM=
hello mate







stop hijacking my bloody thread...!
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Old 22.08.2006, 20:50
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

I must admit I do use P2P to download TV series (Top Gear mainly) which I have no problem with. I would be able to see it on BBC Prime in 6 months anyway and this way I get to be involved in the discussions with my UK friends about the latest edisode (yes, I am a petrolhead, one of my BIG ISSUES about Switzerland is no motor racing, but that's a different discussion for a different time).

Anything you would normally have to pay for (films and music) I have moral issues about downloading. Especially music as you can buy and download individual tracks of the music sites.

It is theft, it does have an effect upstream. Less money for production companies (music and film) means they will stick more to profittable, main stream, products and will be less likely to take risk.

All in my opinion, of course. Which I'm not hypocritical enough to call humble
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Old 22.08.2006, 21:34
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

I used to use P2P to download music a year or so ago, I would probably download 60% and buy 40% (i'd usually download new bands I had heard of before buying) but since iTunes launched the music store i actually pay for about 80% of music downloads, I still download TV programmes and try downloading the odd film but they are usually crap quality, I can't wait for iTunes to start offering TV programme and film downloads in Europe and the rest of the world as they do in the states, although i think they only offer small video downloads for iPod videos, I've got a vid iPod but not sure i'd want to watch them on a tiny screen...I defintely would pay for TV programme downloads, especially if they are american series that the UK has to wait 6 months before seeing

Nicky
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Old 22.08.2006, 22:13
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Quote:
Using P2P to get TV series that you just can't get over here is another thing. Is this wrong? Well since there is no way to legally get these (unless you have access to a station which plays them) how else is one supposed to watch Prison Break (anyone else watching this? Great series)?
You'd be wanting Sky for that - there's loads of such US stuff on it. Mind you, you're not supposed to be able to get Sky here either.....

The 'moral' point is, Movie, Song. Game or TV show. It's all equally illegal if you are distributing copyrighted material without permission.

My point is, I couldn't give a toss about that. I've paid enough for CDs, DVDs, computer games and Satellite telly to last a lifetime. Peer to Peer is great, it lets me get stuff I wouldn't otherwise try and if something is really good enough, I'll buy the original and support the content producer.

Gav
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Old 22.08.2006, 23:02
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Gav, I see the fence just isn't for you
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Old 22.08.2006, 23:33
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

I use P2P, always had.
Music - For me mainly is the way to check if you like a product before buying it original and stuck it in the car.
Movies - I download only crap films eg.: Doom, or film my girlfriend wouldn't watch with me, be it the cinema or on a rented dvd eg.: Scary Movie [n].
Games - Multiplayer online, mostly, you have to have the original for the key, and is good that for a good game, people pays. Single player? :-/

Share is good. Greed is evil.
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Old 23.08.2006, 15:54
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Lob, 'my mate says...' - lmfao, love it.

I think I'll change my handle to Yellow Beard... I wept when Napster was taken down! If I can download it, I will. I don't collect, I'm not a hoarder, buying movies or music, I don't get it, ... the formats change etc. Sorting by genre, alphabet, release artist etc It's all to anorak for me, not good for potential OCD candidates.

It's all too disposable so I don't need to attach any value to it, I can lose it. I don't keep stuff so I don't buy stuff. Never bought any software, games, music, nada after my mother dumped by old vinyl collection in the bin when I went walkabout...although i did buy a few precious Tom Waits CDs, and only because for once I'm interested in all of the tracks.

Bottom line, all industries who claim to be affected are going to have to change the way they approach distribution and availability if they want to lesser the (most likely insignificant) impact.

The industries shot themselves in the foot by not embracing it right from the word go... they squashed one, others just emulate it and pop up, uncontrolled... it was lack of vision and foresight on behalf of the moguls. You snooze, you lose.

p2p, I'm all for it.
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Old 23.08.2006, 16:10
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

As was mentioned somewhere above, the downside of P2P activity is the narrowing of the investment for less mainstream, popular artists: if less money is being spent generally, then the production houses will concentrate on Williams and his ilk.

I know a few people with bands on the myspace.com site and they report terrific traffic... but very few people actually buy (and they're not bad bands). People are willing to listen and download for free, but ultimately small bands never get the chance to find an advance which'll allow them to give up the day job and concentrate on the music :-(

However, Artic Monkeys kinda prove the rule. (For those who don't know, this UK band's album reached number 1 via 'word-of-mouth' downloads alone)

Personally, I try before I usually buy. Or join the Pestalozzi Bibliotek, where for around 40chf a year you get a decent library selection of modern and archived material. Suck it and see!
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Old 23.08.2006, 16:11
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Plus, downloaded quality... is it just me or does it only sound good on headphones?
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Old 23.08.2006, 17:26
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Tell your 'mate' to be really carefull. No less than a year ago, the Swiss goverment lunched an iniciative called 'Game Over' for controlling media piracy. I know one thing, since this started two of the major eDonkey Link servers where brought down: ShareReactor and Razorback, these are very well known by all serious downloaders. I was shocked to know ShareReactors server was in Frauenfeld that is about 20min where I lived about 1 month ago. Since then my 'mate' stopped downloading stuff.

News links:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/13099
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/5085.cfm

Here you can read more about it (in german)
http://www.safe.ch/
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Old 23.08.2006, 17:45
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Kayser, interesting - but I think they're after those hosting (and hosting big-style) rather than the odd downloader....

edit: safe is a pretty horrid site, who put that together?!?
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Old 23.08.2006, 17:48
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Re: What do you think of Peer-to-Peer downloads?

Remember that sharereactor's demise has absolutely NOTHING to do with breaking the law. His stuff was confiscated by the police and no charges were brought. The police knew that they can bring no charges, but they can give him the run-around for a hell of a long time before they give the stuff back - most likely years.

Sharereactor did absolutely nothing wrong and hosted no illegal content on his servers. Ditto for all the others that did it - most of them agree to shut shop because they simply can't afford the legal fees to remain open!

I used to buy quite a lot of music. A few years ago I made a promise to myself to never buy a CD in a record store again. Why? Because the record companies have turned me into a criminal for wanting to listen to music which I have bought on my MP3 player. I simply don't have a CD player in my car anymore - I have an ipod. Then there was the fact that they started copy protecting the music so I couldn't even play it on my PC, and let's not forget that sony rootkit that came out a little while ago that hijacks your entire PC in the name of protecting their "rights". Then add on all the children that have had their pants sued off them. The crowning glory came a few weeks ago with the RIAA allowed a family of a dead man a few weeks to grieve before suing the family of the dead man (after a huge public outcry they silently dropped the action). So sorry - I will not support that industry if I can possibly help it.

I do however believe in supporting artists - why not pay the artists directly and skip their blood-sucking labels? I actually found a site the other week that does this, but can't find it anymore...

By the way - Simon the guy who ran sharereactor also runs respectp2p.org - there's some stuff on there about his legal case / situation.
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