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  #321  
Old 01.07.2011, 14:52
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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No one called her a whale that I know of, but sorry, this is how she seemed to me, especially when she was stuck in the bath. I certainly couldn't compare her to a furry little mouse.
My dear... I fear you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper in this one.
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  #322  
Old 01.07.2011, 14:55
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Re: Fast fatty foods

As Tom1234 said, this is what I saw and these were my thoughts at the time.
Sorry if some people take offence at this.
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  #323  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:07
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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As Tom1234 said, this is what I saw and these were my thoughts at the time.
Sorry if some people take offence at this.
It's all good... I just hope that the reactions to this thread might cause you to reconsider your views a bit... or at least to be a bit more sensitive. I remember when I first got on this forum, I once posted an opinion that I ended up regretting (and hence I ended up changing my opinion) after getting the responses that I did. At first, I was a bit defensive, but it was actually quite nice to hear alternative opinions that made me realize just how subjective I was being. I think it's all too easy for people to mistake their own opinions for objective truth. I know I still do it, but I really try not to.
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  #324  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:10
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Re: Fast fatty foods

Regarding the man in Hawaii who ate six hamburgers. Lets look at this objectively:

1. He may, or may not have been North American. Hawaii is a major holiday destination.

2. He was eating six burgers: Fact

3. For most people 1 or 2 would have been more than sufficient. Fact

4. He must have had a large stomach to put them away with the apparent ease that he did: Fact

5. To get a large stomach, he must have over-consumed on a regular basis. Fact

6. Eating that much food on a regular basis will, even if you ran a marathon every day, make you obese. Fact

However, what we need to find out - is what is cause of this over-eating and it's this that is open to debate, and hence is interesting.

That's why I said the U.S. would be a good place to examine.

The other places at the top of Sandgrounder's list were mainly closed communities with local, isolated reasons for the obesity of their populations.

This is a spreading global phenomenon which makes the U.S. a more suitable country to look to for answers.
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  #325  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:15
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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MusicChick... just want to say that I really appreciate your posts here and the fact that you are able to take the middle-ground and (what I feel is) a more objective viewpoint. I really do find it quite refreshing!
Thanks, Carrie.

Culture, biology, genetics, our own attitude to food, how much cash and time we have, it's a complex matter. Maybe I just like to hang out with confident and fun people, a tad hedonistic, who don't mind to work out after too much food to get rid of energy, but not to keep body weight within certain strict regimented limits...I think both extremes are super dangerous. The overindulgent one, and the fear of all slightly more caloric one. I don't want my child snacking only on raw veg, fruit crackers and water, I also go out of my way to get these damn good olives on the market, grana padano and jambon cru, so who cares. I laugh and eat the entire tube of mentos since I love mint and at times I thought it was food that defined us, I like to challenge myself. I think there were periods I didn't touch anything evil, to the extremes, that took years. And know it is not food that define us. I don't mind my child having the once a month Kraft mac and cheese, since I make sure we eat healthy stuff in front of her and with her, too. She can have icecream for breakfast, she knows and has never asked for it. No real forbidden fruits, we don't tolerate much pickiness out of practical reasons, positively reinforce, and we try to widen her palate with simple rules. I try not to over mentor, over moralize with her. I do not point out fat people to her to say, these folks have zero will power and should have known better, since honestly, it won't help them, nor her to have this attitude, nor any of us here.

Another thing is, weight is something that comes with lifestyle and life phases, definitely. We have thin kids and teens back home, over weight 50s-70s. When it is kids, and here, too, that are starting to struggle, it's getting serious. And kids soak up negativity like sponges. So, the attitude really is important.
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  #326  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:18
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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However, what we need to find out - is what is cause of this over-eating and it's this that is open to debate, and hence is interesting.
I think much of it is neurological (and hence, psychological). It seems quite Pavlovian... to reward oneself with food. And perhaps food triggers the release of dopamine more in some people than in others? Hmmm...
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  #327  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:19
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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32%? So almost half? or, a bit more than a quarter?
Neither.
Nearly a third.
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  #328  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:41
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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The US is positively slender according to this list...

However I think people turn their attention to the US because of the sheer volume of obesity statistics over there.
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That's just a complete example of lies, damned lies and statistics.

Surely you can't take it seriously?

Take the populations of all the top 7 places and they probably barely add up to Zurich. Kuwait = 2.6 mill or which 1.3 mill are non-nationals. You need numbers here folks, not percentages. Numbers.

What a load of balls and complete red herring.

One thing about the list, and about Tom's comment about the guy eating 6 cheeseburgers in Hawaii, is about the culture of the area.

The top 7 countries on the list are ALL Pacific island countries or groups of Pacific islands. Living in Hawaii and going to school not only with Hawaiians (and other "haolies" like myself), there is quite a difference between how being fat is treated there compared to elsewhere.

Being fat isn't taken to immediately indicate that someone is less active, less strong, less capable. There still were PLENTY of chunky people involved in sports, being fat wasn't exclusive to participating in physical activities, nor was it something that excluded one from being seen as attractive or even beautiful / handsome. People had nearly equal chance of being voted to homecoming, prom or the May court regardless of weight, even at our school, which had plenty of military brats with our "mainlander" views in attendance.

Maybe it is my years spent in Hawaii that makes me so sure (and confident!) that being fat doesn't (have to) mean lazy and weak and unable to do things and that it is wrong wrong wrong to judge what someone does with the rest of their life by a "snapshot" image of them dining / enjoying a treat in a café with some friends.


About Kuwait, I have no idea but about the Pacific Islander areas, I have a small one, partially due to having lived there some years and reinforced by some of the reading I've done over the last few days...

While in the area, being fat is (was?) not mutually exclusive to concepts of beauty, it is becoming more of a health problem (higher rates of the sorts of diseases linked to obesity), similar to the problem in Mainland US in that the fatty foods with poor nutrition are less expensive and more easily obtained than traditional foods which were higher in nutrients for the calorie cost.

Many of the islands have foreign interests as major sources for income but yet the locals (tend to) get paid less than the foreigners who come to visit or work there. The types of food and healthcare they have access to and can afford is different also to what the foreigners have access to and can afford. This really is similar to some of the underlying cause of "the obesity epidemic" in the US... The people who call the shots and make the money can afford better living than the people working for them.

100 or 200 years ago, around the world this was a different issue... Then the poor / working class didn't have cheap sources of food so were starving. Now they (really, looking at my life, I should say "we") are still starving in a way - starving for nutrition.

100 - 200yrs ago, the folks working at those jobs were doing physical labor, burning off the calories they did take in. Now they are doing far more sedentary jobs, with hours just as long, which often do not leave enough time, or help build the "energy" to spend non-working hours on for-purpose exercise. So, then they were visibly starving, now they are still lacking nutrition but obese.


Now, HERE in Switzerland, right now, it is different. Working class still doesn't make a hell of a lot BUT here, the lower paid jobs are quite a bit closer to realistic on what someone can live off of while at the same time, the hours are less demanding. Or at least, that's the impression I have given the lack of mandatory 6-day work weeks, mandatory overtime, having to cash out vacation days because you couldn't take them as vacations. It is NOT "the norm" here to anticipate those things either, like it is in the US (and likely other "corporate culture rules" areas as well).

So, for now, we are "safe" from this, the Swiss are safe from this... the more that corporate "work ya til you drop" mindset takes over though, the more likely I see it happening here too. Sure, sure the top folks (unless they truly are lazy gluttons OR have some medical condition which make them gain and retain weight) will still look fit with their sporting vacations, gym memberships and good food - just like in the US - but with that type of life, the worker bees will start to get fat - also just like in the US.
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  #329  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:49
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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Neither.
Nearly a third.
This is why scientists aren't journalists .
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  #330  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:51
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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I think much of it is neurological (and hence, psychological). It seems quite Pavlovian... to reward oneself with food. And perhaps food triggers the release of dopamine more in some people than in others? Hmmm...
I know, I think I am going to have a piece of chocolate right when I finish this post and bake a cake to take to day care party. Ha! And, I ain't no Yank.

I read somewhere a really good notion, that there is a certain mindset of thin people, and once somebody who wants or needs to shed some weight adopts this mindset, it all of a sudden works. Not before, though, since it gets too difficult and painful.

The thin thinking (who ever thought this, mind you, fat and thin), was "no matter when I eat, I'll be ok". I won't starve to death till then. I am living in convenience era, so even if I don't have breakfast today, or don't bring a snack, or reduce my meal size at lunch time just to avoid being sleepy and unproductive, I will certainly survive. And, I will kinda like the feeling of emptiness, the tiny fasting, the deprivation...since, there is so much time and food to make up for it, that when I eat again, I will not overindulge, since, we live in the era of bounty. Food is everywhere. I reward myself with the feeling of control, allertness of slightly starved brain, hahah (it's true, weirdly enough), and much hightened pleasure of food when it actually comes. And my stomach is small, I eat slowly and chew a lot, let's see when I feel first sign of saturation.

As opposed to some folks, who get ready for a tough day, or emotionally tough day, or physically strenuous day, and prepare. And with a large portion for breakfast and then some in the car. And then a colleague comes and invites us for a lunch, which we feel bad about eating half of it, so we polish it off, why not treat ourselves. As long as I don't feel the empty stomach, since it reminds me...of those times I was so so hungry, never more. Me needs nice and full tummy, with some desert, just in case dinner comes at later hour, I will make up for it tomorrow, no food. Food stress, I don't want to go too long without, must plan and eat for the stock. As long as my tummy don't rumble since it's embarrassing and it feels sad. Here is a Snickers bar. Large sweet frapuccino, so I reward myself, to hell with resolutions we are grown up and need fuel.

It sounds funny, I am not trying to make fun of it, it is really true. I do like going hungry sometimes, working so hard you don't notice it's lunch time, why not go and have something light and save half for 2-3 hrs later. Portion control and not being afraid of feeling a little bit hungry is great. I actually put on a few kilos when I planned my meals, as if I was on a desert island and there was no food to fetch later, the portions reflected it too, subconsciously. The minute you eat supper often, 2hrs, but miniscule little healthy bits, or go a little hungry to relearn how to read cues properly, it's starting to work. I think, that this is "thin" thinking. It's very zen. You quit checking out food stands, train food carts and vending machines. You don't keep food on you. Once you master that, then you look into what gives you fuel, and check the nutrition, since for example yoghurt with seeds and oats will saturate me for long, so reduce the portion a tad, to still be within the 2-3hrs, but tiny bits. No fear of hunger, I actually like the cues, ie my body is telling me something, it's lovely I actually pay attention and decode well, I can go about 1hr more without my work productivity reducing.

I will have to check when I got the how thin people think idea from. It's a neat idea, trusting my body being ok. No fear of hunger since my body will be just fine. I bet it's a Yank book, hahaha...
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  #331  
Old 01.07.2011, 15:58
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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It sounds funny, I am not trying to make fun of it, it is really true. I do like going hungry sometimes, working so hard you don't notice it's lunch time, why not go and have something light and save half for 2-3 hrs later. Portion control and not being afraid of feeling a little bit hungry is great. I actually put on a few kilos when I planned my meals, as if I was on a desert island and there was no food to fetch later, the portions reflected it too, subconsciously. The minute you eat supper often, 2hrs, but miniscule little healthy bits, or go a little hungry to relearn how to read cues properly, it's starting to work. I think, that this is "thin" thinking. It's very zen. You quit checking out food stands, train food carts and vending machines. You don't keep food on you. Once you master that, then you look into what gives you fuel, and check the nutrition, since for example yoghurt with seeds and oats will saturate me for long, so reduce the portion a tad, to still be within the 2-3hrs, but tiny bits. No fear of hunger, I actually like the cues, ie my body is telling me something, it's lovely I actually pay attention and decode well, I can go about 1hr more without my work productivity reducing.

I will have to check when I got the how thin people think idea from. It's a neat idea, trusting my body being ok. No fear of hunger since my body will be just fine. I bet it's a Yank book, hahaha...
Now were thinking along the same lines.

I too embrace hunger. There's no way I could sit down to a good meal if I had no feeling of being hungry.

I love that feeling when you go out for a long walk and come back for lunch with the anticipation of the food ahead.

Some people (perhaps a hell of a lot) seem terrified of feeling hungry.

I can't stand that phrase "I'm starving!". Well, actually, you're not. You'd need to g without food for about a week before you could say that with some conviction.
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  #332  
Old 01.07.2011, 16:05
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Re: Fast fatty foods

"A yank book." Lol. That sounds naughty.

For me... it's strange because even though I eat healthier here than I did in the "Land o' Yank," I actually put weight on after moving here. But I think that's because I'm married now and hence, 1) I am no longer playing the "single game" and focusing so much on my appearance and 2) My husband and I make dinner together almost every night and often eat quite late, since he doesn't get home from work until 7:30 or 8:00.

And of course, the fact that I have to sit at a computer so much for my work doesn't help.

Anyways, I'm curious how many other EF'ers have felt more social pressure to be thin, after moving here...
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  #333  
Old 01.07.2011, 16:17
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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Now were thinking along the same lines.
We are thinking along the same line all along, we just do different things with these notions, I think. You try to call the things with the "real" words while I know the recipients might shut off because of the vocabulary, or things might get even worse, feeding the same void place inside the person the issue has already created.

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Some people (perhaps a hell of a lot) seem terrified of feeling hungry.
But how does one transfer that...you know. How do you make a person appreciate that deficit in one most important Maslow need, that functions without us thinking. It's so subconscious. Tell somebody "let's just starve a bit", might not really work well. One stresses and the quickest fix is a candy bar or, on contrary, a fab real foodie fest, same thing.

This body confidence making us a ok with the idea of going hungry a tad comes with over all confidence, and that's why I think to stomp on confidence even more by exposing the fatness in real day light might be a bad MO.

Another thing is trying to challenge oneself. I love bufet settings, when you get a tiny bit of all. So, I get a tea spoon of a few things, just to see if I regret later. I really don't. You listen to your stomach and after a little while it does not want much more for now. I also try to see the foods in real groups (pasta as white flour, sweet things I visualize as pile of white sugar, greasy yummy things I visualize as oil, even fruits and veggies you can turn into visual carb images, or fried veggies into oil and a bit of fiber). But it is a lot easier for somebody, who comes from a culture that used to be so simple and poor. We weren't attacked by aggressive food marketing. And adults don't eat candy there, either. I think that's why I inhale a whole tube of mentos now. Well, once a year. Denner, I hate you for selling a kilo pack.

Ok, who is up for a tiny fasting today? Till 9pm? Lift your hands up in the air...lift your hands up in the air...

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  #334  
Old 01.07.2011, 16:21
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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Some people (perhaps a hell of a lot) seem terrified of feeling hungry.
Actually, psychologically, that's why "diets" don't work. Denying yourself is proven to not work, at least, not long term anyhow.

Just as you've said that you allow your kids some treats as well as have some indulgences yourself, some folks do have a "panic" feeling about not being allowed (whether by themselves or someone else) to have something they want. That's why most good dietitians / nutritionists advise to include a little bit of something you really love rather than denying yourself entirely.

So, someone sees that they can't have any food after 6 or 7 or 8pm (whatever the "in" cutoff time is that year ), some folks obsess about the denial and when they give in to temptation, they go too far. Especially if it is something that will be visibly uneven if sampled (like a pan of brownies ). These days I am better about it, I get a candy bar with sections that can be broken off, have one or two "squares" and save the rest - it still has to be the whole row though, can't leave a jagged edge.

To help with this, with things that come in large'ish packages, I picked up some kiddie sized bowls at Ikea and have just one of those bowls full (or a handful in the bowl) at a time. This sometimes leads to a different problem though...

Some things though I still have a really tough time with the sharing thing. Let's say I get two bags of chips, one I like a lot, one I know hubby at least finds acceptable. For mine, I plan to have some "now", some later and some probably tomorrow with lunch. I give hubby his when he comes home. He eats it all. I take out mine (with some missing as I had some "now") and hubby sees, he wants some. I share... he eats the rest. So, now, I've kinda gone back to the "hiding" thing a bit, so that I'll still have some chips for tomorrow, or I eat the whole thing "now" (or at least before he gets home), so that I have all of it that I'd wanted.

So, it's similar to the "starving" or empty feeling thing... being denied something you want. Eating it all (or hiding it) so that you are sure you get "your share."
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  #335  
Old 01.07.2011, 16:28
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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Ok, who is up for a tiny fasting today? Till 9pm? Lift your hands up in the air...lift your hands up in the air...

*sigh*
Would love to join in... but I'm 5+ months pregnant and when I feel hungry, I eat (even if just a nibble). Besides, even when I'm not pregnant, I get really dizzy and a nasty headache when I don't eat.
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  #336  
Old 01.07.2011, 16:31
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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Some things though I still have a really tough time with the sharing thing. Let's say I get two bags of chips, one I like a lot, one I know hubby at least finds acceptable. For mine, I plan to have some "now", some later and some probably tomorrow with lunch. I give hubby his when he comes home. He eats it all. I take out mine (with some missing as I had some "now") and hubby sees, he wants some. I share... he eats the rest. So, now, I've kinda gone back to the "hiding" thing a bit, so that I'll still have some chips for tomorrow, or I eat the whole thing "now" (or at least before he gets home), so that I have all of it that I'd wanted.
Ha ha!!! My husband hides his chips from me sometimes (especially now that I'm pregnant).
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Old 01.07.2011, 16:32
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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That's just a complete example of lies, damned lies and statistics.

Surely you can't take it seriously?

Take the populations of all the top 7 places and they probably barely add up to Zurich. Kuwait = 2.6 mill or which 1.3 mill are non-nationals. You need numbers here folks, not percentages. Numbers.

What a load of balls and complete red herring.
That was partly my point (albeit perhaps a bit too tongue-in-cheek), which was related to objections at using the US as a finger pointing target.

Effectively it is the most obese place on the planet and the little nations ahead of it on the list probably would be a comparative drop in the ocean.
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Old 01.07.2011, 16:35
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It's hard to install the sharing when the other one hogs. One gets preventative and takes measures, which at the end of the day do not promote sharing, either..Vicious circle.

I remember when we were kids, we fought over who will offer the nice stuff to parents first. The nicest first bite. My parents also share food and keep the nice bites if they are feeding eachother, for the other one.

I think for the chip scenario, the ideal would be to forget chips. Let your partner have all the chips he wants, since honestly, it's making you healthy and beautiful (not that you would need the 2nd bit, anyways..). One also tends to hog and watch out for his own affairs when one does not feel provided for. It's a rough feeling. I remember a friend who wasn't able to fall in love, since there were 11 siblings in the poor Irish family, and he had to fight for all, food (there wasn't enough for all kids, so some kids always fell asleep food deprived), etc. He wasn't able to unconditionally love since he had no trust and had to constantly protect himself. One has to grow out of these conditioning things, really, and let go. Love oneself to allow to grow out of it. Poverty in childhood can also make people hog things, food included..

Maybe if you share your chips, just give them all to him, baby steps...

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*sigh*
Would love to join in... but I'm 5+ months pregnant and when I feel hungry, I eat (even if just a nibble). Besides, even when I'm not pregnant, I get really dizzy and a nasty headache when I don't eat.
I know, remember the prego hungry feeling, the horrific lightheadedness..

2nd trimester is nice, though, enjoy the summery 2nd trimester if you can, with all the food your prego body wants!
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Last edited by MusicChick; 01.07.2011 at 16:47. Reason: Merging successive posts.
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  #339  
Old 01.07.2011, 16:59
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Re: Fast fatty foods

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*sigh*
Would love to join in... but I'm 5+ months pregnant and when I feel hungry, I eat (even if just a nibble). Besides, even when I'm not pregnant, I get really dizzy and a nasty headache when I don't eat.
Yeah, eat! You never know what's around the corner.

My pregnant wife lost weight in the last two weeks due to worry about two sick children -one who was in hospital.
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Old 01.07.2011, 17:22
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Re: Fast fatty foods

Thanks!

(Wanted to quote both MusicChick and Tom, but can't seem to figure out how to do the multiple quote in one post thing).

Tom... I hope your children recovered well!
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