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  #41  
Old 03.10.2011, 19:31
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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I think Phil is overdue for a spanking.

Stop it. You'll only encourage him...
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  #42  
Old 03.10.2011, 19:43
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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LLL are indeed VERY much pro breast feeding, but as said, they do not go stalking women in maternity wards, or knock on the door of woment who've just had a baby. Women phone them directly and ask for support, help, advice- and THEN, and only THEN, LLL volunteers will go and see women to help. Some of these women often ask to be seen outside the home due to pressure not to breastfeed- and are often terrified and in tears.
There was a woman in my 'mom and me' classes after I had my daughter who had a well meaning, but overzealous friend, in the LLL and was SO stressed over breastfeeding as she wasn't producing enough milk or wasn't doing well at it (even after several consultations with a lactation specialist), had to rush her baby to the ER one night due to her infant becoming so undernourished/dehydrated that the infant had to go on life support for about a week. I'm not saying this is a philosophy of the LLL, but I think everyone in the equation loses sight of the ultimate goal of a well-fed happy baby, even if that includes formula.

I understand the good they do but, at least in cultures where boobs and boob feeding aren't an issue, they do tend to be a bit aggressive and shaming in their messages about women who choose to do both or exclusively bottle feed.
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  #43  
Old 03.10.2011, 19:44
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Stop it. You'll only encourage him...
You say that as if women who offer spanking aren't aware of that.
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  #44  
Old 03.10.2011, 19:53
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Re: Power and breast feeding

As said, LLL supporters to not really meet women who choose not to breastfeed. They only support and advise when women call them personally to do so, because they want to BF and are experiencing difficulties.
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  #45  
Old 03.10.2011, 20:05
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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As said, LLL supporters to not really meet women who choose not to breastfeed. They only support and advise when women call them personally to do so, because they want to BF and are experiencing difficulties.
Again, I'll reiterate that giving women both choices are important and I admire any organization that advocates choice for women, no matter where they're from or who they are, but as a woman who had a child in the US, I was visited in my hospital room by a LLL rep and who tried to give me a hard time when I said I'd probably be doing both, not just breastfeeding. I was an older mother so I tried to have a rational discussion with her but asked her to leave when she tried to tell me I'd harm my child for eternity if I gave her formula. I asked her to leave and she did, but it left me wondering what happened to the days when we didn't have to be so neurotic about everything we did as parents.
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Old 03.10.2011, 20:20
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Re: Power and breast feeding

If you're in a position of choice, one of the most valuable things you can pass onto your child is the strength to stand up for your choices. Don't allow yourself to be pushed around by family, friends, society, midwives, LLL, whatever. Be strong and do what you think and feel is right. Of course, do your research and make educated decisions.

Allowing ourselves to be pushed into doing things we oppose only perpetuates the victimization of women the world over. We can do little to help women who are in positions of less choice, but we CAN help women as a whole in our plight to achieve equality by not being concerned with what other people think about our free choices.
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  #47  
Old 03.10.2011, 21:25
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Re: Power and breast feeding

Poptart I've never heard of this happening in the UK- and I am glad she left when asked. Sounds like she was too pushy- although most BF specialists will advise that mixing BF and formula is not easy at all, as milk production is stimulated by demand, and will drop if the baby does not feed regularly (or milk expressed). It's great that people are on hand to help and support who want to BF, but being pushy is out of order, and counter productive.

Musings thanks for that excellent post. Bravo.
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  #48  
Old 03.10.2011, 21:36
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Poptart I've never heard of this happening in the UK- and I am glad she left when asked. Sounds like she was too pushy- although most BF specialists will advise that mixing BF and formula is not easy at all, as milk production is stimulated by demand, and will drop if the baby does not feed regularly (or milk expressed). It's great that people are on hand to help and support who want to BF, but being pushy is out of order, and counter productive.
Well, I'm trying to point out why LLL might have an image that is a bit different than you might think. Especially in B&W in Boston, they weren't there to offer me a choice as, there are few more privileged women in the world than the women there. I agree that being pushy is counter-productive as I was a new mom and I had no idea what was ahead of me, but I had one goal, and that was a healthy and happy baby, even if that meant formula...which was where that LLL women got pushy.

Long story short, I had choices and I wasn't their target audience..yet I still had a lot of social pressure to conform. I did what I could but, at the end of the day, I did what I needed to keep my kid fed and I was happy with that. There was a mom of twins in that 'mom and me' class I was in who fed her kids formula and she was a hoot, not only because she was real and less neurotic, but also because those babies were a round and as happy as babies could be. She used to lean over to me and say, damn, we've got the biggest babies in this class.... She cracked me up, mostly because she was so sweet and so honest.
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  #49  
Old 03.10.2011, 22:24
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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However, breast feeding reduces some stomach problems (less chance of air getting swallowed as with a bottle, more antibodies etc). I'm not saying that BF babies don't get colic, but I believe it is less likely. And colic WILL keep babies up all night.

And both sets of babies wake in the night. It depends what you want to do when they do. Do you want to go and prepare some sterile milk powder into some sterile water in a sterile bottle and heat it to the correct temperature (I don't see this taking less than 5 minutes and requiring open eyes and brain cells), or do you roll over, and pick your child up and put it to your breast (which takes 2 seconds and you can do with no brain cells). And as both babies will wake, you will have limited brain cells.

It's a lot cheaper to breast feed too. I must admit, cost and time to do night feeds were more important factors to me than long term health trends.
About the colics, it is not true. A baby has more chance to have them with breasfeeding due to what the mother eat. Most of my friends who breastfed had lots of trouble to get over the baby's colics, me included. I had to stop to eat a bunch of stuff to stop my milk to hurt my baby's tummy.

And nothing more simple than the sterilisation. I put all the new stuff into boiling water and later, I use the dish washer (which is perfectly safe and good for sterilisation).

I have one container for my son's boiled water. I can fiil the bottles from it as needed, when close to the end, I boil some more.

My formula is already prepared in some specifics distributor. I prepare them ahead and I am good for a day or more of fromula portion. I just put water in the bottle, mix the formula and we are ready.

30 seconds max and baby eats happily. I don't understand this ''take soooo much time to prepare'' non-sens. A tiny bit of organisation and it is very easy. And I have the experience of Breastfeeding and Bottle feeding.

My daughter was BF and changed to Bottle Feeding. She didn't sleep through the nights for ages. I was exausted.

My son is Bottle feed exclusively. He sleeps through the night since he is 8 weeks old.

Bottle or breast has nothing to do about how a baby sleeps. It is about hoe the baby's sleep is, that's all.
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Old 03.10.2011, 22:45
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Re: Power and breast feeding

To Carrie F:

Please please please do not believe that your child will sleep better if formula fed! Sleeping through the night is baby-dependant!

While a breast-fed baby may wake up more often, you can easily nurse while the both of you 'sleep'. If you co-sleep at the beginning this will be even easier, but even if you have a nice comfy chair next to the crib you can sleep-nurse sitting up. Maybe it sounds crazy but at first you will be tired enough to sleep standing up!

A breast-fed baby, feeding on demand, will eat every 2-3 hours, while a scheduled formula fed baby will eat every 3 - not a huge difference.

Please make an INFORMED decision that you are comfortable with because it WILL affect you , physically and emotionally.

You should really look at the website of Dr. Jack Newman - he is a breastfeeding expert! http://www.nbci.ca/index.php?option=...tpage&Itemid=1
Especially the 'information and Videos' section. The info sheet on how to latch a baby on is how I learned and there is a video showing a baby DRINKING and SWALLOWING - just because a baby is latched and sucking does not mean he is drinking and swallowing and as a new mom you would never be able to tell - you just don't know what 'correct' looks like.

Also helpful is KellyMom http://www.kellymom.com/index.html. But, if you choose not to breastfeed or cannot, I would avoid the blog (I struggled with very low milk supply and could never exclusively breastfeed and the 'breastfeeding is the only way' attitude of some of the blog posts just made me feel bad about myself...).

With experience in both, I can say that any inconvenience of brestfeeding in public is much much less than the inconvenience of preparing food, warming it, making sure you have enough and all of the bottle parts, etc each time you leave the house.

You will have many many questions at the hospital (breast or formula) - ASK THEM ALL!!! You are not a burden - it is the job of the nurses and midwives there to provide you with answers so demand that you get them (be prepared for differing opinions among the staff -try to read a bit about it before the big day so you are less confused!). And really, it is their job to help you and, after all, you pay CHF300 each month for insurance so get your money's worth!!

Also, the midwife will surely tell you not to give your baby a pacifier/dummy. Many believe it causes nipple confusion and interferes with breastfeeding. If you do not breastfeed please don't deny your baby a pacifier! Babies have a suckling instinct and are comforted by the breast - the pacifier is the only substitute for this. I did not give one, at the advice of my midwife, and wished I had. There are many times when the baby will cry cry cry and can only be calmed suckling (not feeding) at the breast. If you choose not to breastfeed, the suckling has to come from somewhere!

Do not be afraid to ask questions and best of luck with whatever comes your way - it is YOUR adventure!!
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  #51  
Old 03.10.2011, 23:09
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Re: Power and breast feeding

I felt like punching the pharmacist in the face when he suggested that "breast milk was best" when I was buying a tin of formula on my way back from hospital. My son was 10 days old and I just had an operation where I was told by my doctor not to b'feed until at least 6 hours later

I was also given advice to stop b'feeding from a doctor in France when I had mastitis on Christmas day Back in Switzerland I was then told by the hospital b'feeding consultant that I shouldn't have stopped feeding (I was still pumping).

We all try to do what's best for our babies and we don't need anyone lecturing us about it. I'm a former LLL member too and have 3 years experience in the b'feeding department. When my pediatrician said that my daughter needed cereal supplements at 4 months I followed her advice to give supplements but not stop with b'feeding. Others told me that my milk supply would "catch up" and not to give anything else.

If the doctors and the consultants can't agree, what hope do us mums have. I felt like I was bombarded with differing advice. In the end I did what was best for me and my babies and followed my doctor's advice. My daughter is now almost 2 year old and quite tall for her age and she still eats a lot!
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  #52  
Old 03.10.2011, 23:16
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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This happens with specific groups and not with others, and very well observed. So no, it does not happen in Surrey, for instance. Although the sexual breasts are not for feeding might- and I am happy to say I haven't got the exact facts and am making assumptions here.

LLL are indeed VERY much pro breast feeding, but as said, they do not go stalking women in maternity wards, or knock on the door of woment who've just had a baby. Women phone them directly and ask for support, help, advice- and THEN, and only THEN, LLL volunteers will go and see women to help. Some of these women often ask to be seen outside the home due to pressure not to breastfeed- and are often terrified and in tears.
Women in Switzerland often make decisions about having c-sections based on sexual and convenience reasons. So I can't see why other cultures can't also make baby related decision on these same reasons.

And I'm sure your friend isn't one of these and I don't have kids so I never met one, but some of my friends have complained that they found LLL members to be extremely pushy. One of which had to have her husband throw the woman out.

Choice is choice. One's culture and family are part of why we make certain choices.


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If the doctors and the consultants can't agree, what hope do us mums have. I felt like I was bombarded with differing advice. In the end I did what was best for me and my babies and followed my doctor's advice. My daughter is now almost 2 year old and quite tall for her age and she still eats a lot!
Well said.
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  #53  
Old 03.10.2011, 23:28
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Re: Power and breast feeding

MarieZug - excellent post. It was a very long time ago (June 73) when I found myself faced with contradictory advice and information coming from all sides, and it was so confusing. In the end, like you, I just did what felt right for me, and it worked (most of the time!).

MiniMia- I totally agree about choice, for whatever reasons, social and cultural as well. This thread's purpose however was to illustrate that some women are NOT given the choice to breastfeed, for a variety of reasons, even though they really want to.

No LLL, midwife or doctor can force you to breastfeed, thank goodness, although the might try to persuade you, somehow,
But sometimes husbands and mil's can exert huge pressure not to, a very different 'power' relationship.
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  #54  
Old 03.10.2011, 23:33
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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About the colics, it is not true. A baby has more chance to have them with breasfeeding due to what the mother eat. Most of my friends who breastfed had lots of trouble to get over the baby's colics, me included. I had to stop to eat a bunch of stuff to stop my milk to hurt my baby's tummy.

And nothing more simple than the sterilisation. I put all the new stuff into boiling water and later, I use the dish washer (which is perfectly safe and good for sterilisation).

I have one container for my son's boiled water. I can fiil the bottles from it as needed, when close to the end, I boil some more.

My formula is already prepared in some specifics distributor. I prepare them ahead and I am good for a day or more of fromula portion. I just put water in the bottle, mix the formula and we are ready.

30 seconds max and baby eats happily. I don't understand this ''take soooo much time to prepare'' non-sens. A tiny bit of organisation and it is very easy. And I have the experience of Breastfeeding and Bottle feeding.

My daughter was BF and changed to Bottle Feeding. She didn't sleep through the nights for ages. I was exausted.

My son is Bottle feed exclusively. He sleeps through the night since he is 8 weeks old.

Bottle or breast has nothing to do about how a baby sleeps. It is about hoe the baby's sleep is, that's all.
What I also did was sterilize a bunch of bottles and put them in the freezer and use them for the night feeds.
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Old 03.10.2011, 23:42
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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My first baby will be born next week (scheduled C-section due to the baby's position).

I have to admit that I have felt a bit pressured and just automatically expected to breast-feed -- this by both my husband and his mother. But I guess that my biggest reason for thinking about NOT breast-feeding is because I've read/heard that babies tend to sleep longer during the night when they are formula-fed. Does anyone know if that's true?

Well, either way -- I fear that it's a bit selfish on my part and that I should consider what is best for the baby first. But I do know that if I have a lot of trouble with breast-feeding, I'm not going to hesitate to just give formula... especially if it will help ease some of the sleep deprivation and keep me from slipping into postpartum depression, etc.

Besides, I was never breastfed and I turned out perfectly normal (hee hee. Right! )
I found my son went through a phase of sleeping through the night (from, say, 10pm - 5am) for a couple of weeks or even a month from about the age of 8 weeks then go through a phase of waking up every 2-4 hours for the next few weeks and so on with random intervals.

I breastfed him for the first 6 or 7 months so I don't think formula or breast milk makes that much of a difference to the sleep patterns. If they are in a growth phase they'll probably wake up more to feed whatever you give them.

I'm not a breast feeding nazi (couldn't give a toss which way other babies are fed) but just to share my own theory which isn't scientific or nuthin, I think there is a good chance that breastfed babies will be easier to turn to different foods during weaning because the taste of the breast milk is going to change on a daily basis because of what mum is eating so they become a bit more used to changing tastes than if they are just getting the same formula each day.

I ate everything when I was breast-feeding (including onions, chilli or whatever red-flag foods people will tell you with bulging-eyed horror that you must not eat whilst breast feeding) and the wee fella didn't seem to have any problems.

Seems to have paid off because my son will shovel any kind of food down from sprouts to tinned sardines with equal gusto. But I repeat that's my own theory and findings so don't shoot me for it.
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Old 04.10.2011, 00:53
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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MarieZug - excellent post. It was a very long time ago (June 73) when I found myself faced with contradictory advice and information coming from all sides, and it was so confusing. In the end, like you, I just did what felt right for me, and it worked (most of the time!).

MiniMia- I totally agree about choice, for whatever reasons, social and cultural as well. This thread's purpose however was to illustrate that some women are NOT given the choice to breastfeed, for a variety of reasons, even though they really want to.

No LLL, midwife or doctor can force you to breastfeed, thank goodness, although the might try to persuade you, somehow,
But sometimes husbands and mil's can exert huge pressure not to, a very different 'power' relationship.

So, if the woman chooses to breast feed against what her family & culture suggest, she has choice. If she chooses not to breast feed in agreement with what her culture and family suggest, she has no choice? I don't buy that. & I don't believe that MILs & husbands are ripping breasts from the baby's mouth.

Women are being put under pressure from different sides. In fact, the opposite case is also true in that there are many woman who would love to bottle feed but are practically ostracized when they even mention it.

Why is one a choice and the other NOT a choice?
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Old 04.10.2011, 01:16
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Re: Power and breast feeding

Not sure I follow this MM? If a woman is prevented by her husband or family from breastfeeding she sometimes has no or little choice.

Other women are often pressurised to breastfeed against their wishes, and maybe feel a bit uncomfortable about saying 'no' - but generally will make their own choice and decision.

What I am trying to say if that some women are pressurised from many sides, for many reasons. (eg not just pressurised to BF even when they would prefer to formula feed). Not expressing myself very well I know.
Yes, it is incredible to believe, but some men really are NOT happy with their wives./gf's breast feeding and make it hard for them to do so. Same with other members of some families, usually mothers or mils, for other reasons. One I've not mentioned yet is that BF is seen by some as 'primitive and for the poor'.
I didn't believe it either at first.

All should have a choice to do what they feel right, in an informed way and with the support of those around them.
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Old 04.10.2011, 02:00
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Not sure I follow this MM? If a woman is prevented by her husband or family from breastfeeding she sometimes has no or little choice.

Other women are often pressurised to breastfeed against their wishes, and maybe feel a bit uncomfortable about saying 'no' - but generally will make their own choice and decision.

What I am trying to say if that some women are pressurised from many sides, for many reasons. (eg not just pressurised to BF even when they would prefer to formula feed). Not expressing myself very well I know.

Yes, it is incredible to believe, but some men really are NOT happy with their wives./gf's breast feeding and make it hard for them to do so. Same with other members of some families, usually mothers or mils, for other reasons. One I've not mentioned yet is that BF is seen by some as 'primitive and for the poor'.
I didn't believe it either at first.

I don't find it difficult to believe that some men don't want women to BF considering there are quite a few men who don't want their wives to give birth naturally & then the women choose c-sections. This happens every day and no one seems shocked by this.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think it's any different at all.

There are plenty of women who "make their own choice" but because they have been pressured by society, by their family, by their husbands, by the pharmacist, by the doctor, by the mid-wife, by the neighbor because "breast milk is best". They are very often guilted into choosing to breast feed when they don't really want to. And let's not forget some men think that the woman MUST breast feed THEIR baby.

This is the SAME thing as what you describe but the opposite, ie, it's not really a choice at all unless they want to defend themselves to everyone at every turn.

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All should have a choice to do what they feel right, in an informed way and with the support of those around them.
Ain't that the truth!
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Old 04.10.2011, 08:15
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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This is the SAME thing as what you describe but the opposite, ie, it's not really a choice at all unless they want to defend themselves to everyone at every turn.
It doesn't just stop with breastfeeding in these cases, either. My sister's first MIL had her hand in every aspect of my sister's baby's early days. When she should feed, when she should sleep, which doctor she should have, etc., etc.

She was even forcing the baby into the Catholic church and had arranged the christening all on the quiet. Evil bint.

Luckily (!) her first partner buggered off wanting nothing more to do with the child so it was easy to kick the MIL into touch. Her new husband's family are lovely.

I've been lucky with my support network and have had sympathetic parents and in-laws who have never interfered but have given guidance whenever it's been needed.

I can't imagine how it must grind you down if you are constantly at loggerheads with those closest to you in those fragile weeks after the birth of a baby.
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Old 04.10.2011, 14:26
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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M But I guess that my biggest reason for thinking about NOT breast-feeding is because I've read/heard that babies tend to sleep longer during the night when they are formula-fed. Does anyone know if that's true?

)
It's true... You could, however, do what I did and top up the last breast feed at night with a bottle of formula feed.
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