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  #81  
Old 05.10.2011, 10:45
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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And it is not an easy task being a father. So while your all blaring on about "many women" being "pressurized" perhaps you could put some numbers behind it. no one I know, have known, know that friends know or have ever talked to has discussed not wanting their partner to breastfeed so they have exclusive access to their boobs.

It's almost like watching a Feminists Unite meeting taking place.
I agree, I have never come across a father not wanting his child to be breast fed, I think we dont give men enough credit here - the child is number 1 and a father will support what's best for the child and the mother whether thats helping her breast feed or sharing the task of formula feeding. Formula feeding allows a father to bond much quicker with a baby as a father can get more involved. I have been aware how much longer it took my husband to bond with our son as my son was always with me and only I could settle and soothe him.

Having said that I am still a breast is best believer - if it's possible for that to happen.

But I disagree that being pro bresat feeding makes me a feminist
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Old 05.10.2011, 10:47
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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  #83  
Old 05.10.2011, 10:55
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Re: Power and breast feeding

Crikey, looks like things are getting a bit heated... I just wanted to say to all those new mums/soon to be mums, the most important thing is try not to worry about it. I know its easy to say, but everybody is different and so many people will give you their experiences and horror/great stories, take them all with a pinch of salt. Only you and your baby will know what is working for you. Breastfeeding is hard - the lady in the bed next to you latches her baby on effortlessly while you struggle, or its 3 am and you are so tired you can hardly see straight, but this little thing is crying for food that only you have for him/her. Its tough, but very rewarding. And its also impossible to explain it - you know when everyone tells you that when you meet the man you want to marry and you will just know? And you say but how will I know, and then you do and then u understand? Am I rambling?? Just relax (easier said than done I know) and trust yourself and your judgement. It will hurt in the beginning as your body adjust to the ahem extra attention in certain areas, and I reckon it takes about six weeks to settle into some kind of rhythm. So give yourself some time to work it out. By the way, I have had four children, and breastfed them all, but each one was different, one I fed for 10 months, another for 5, and so on. Each time I thought I knew what to expect - ha ha!! Life is a rollercoaster!!!
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  #84  
Old 05.10.2011, 10:55
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Unite Sisters, Unite against the Evil Male Pig!
howay Mike - you're only a part evil man pig
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  #85  
Old 05.10.2011, 10:56
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Hyperbole massive. Not sure how this thread has you feeling insecure enough to turn a comment about pressure on women into a defensive comparison of how men experience pressure too.

As for men feeling pressured to be a breadwinner, it still doesn't change that women are increasingly having to do it all - work and the bulk of parenting and managing the home. In the UK, last I saw it's nearly half of mothers working full-time while in Switzerland, it's about equal between men and women.

Lol @ the mother experiencing the joy at all times. Again, see above for women who also have to work. Plus, it's not all joy being a parent. I know from friends and family that it's also messy and stressful and can even feel lonely at times.

I'm pregnant with my first child but plan to remain in full-time employment whilst my husband is a stay-at-home dad. I have enormous respect for women who are working full-time alongside their partners but still being the main parent and decision-maker in the home (especially single parents!). Quite frankly, I fear I couldn't do it. Huge kudos.
Women who work full time have someone to look after their children don't they ? In which case the parenting share is equal. The "fathers are lazy layabouts while women run everything" is a bit of a myth really. The whole family puts in effort when raising a child. I certainly will be tommorow morning when I feed our daughter at 5.30am as I do each morning before work.

Single parents are an entirely different case and have admiration from everyone because they manage a difficult situation completely by themselves.

The posting was slightly tongue in cheek, everyone knows parenting is not all joy, but there was a bit too much man-bashing going on without making some retort.
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Old 05.10.2011, 10:57
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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howay Mike - you're only a part evil man pig
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  #87  
Old 05.10.2011, 10:57
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Re: Power and breast feeding

I think only the woman must decide if she like to breastfeeding.
For me , well all change in this country, since the baby is born .
Here they look you ugly if you wanna have a c-section, in my country is normal, you decide (of course with your doctor) when you wanna have the baby.
My head change a little here, now am more for the natural things .
My 2 babys was normal delivery, no anestesia, and both breastfeeding (now one is 6 months am still on it)

so for a new mother is good to know a few good or bad things from breastfeeding.

good:
- always baby have fresh milk ready to drink.
- supposed to help for alergies .
- supposed to get you closer to your baby.
- can you give it even when you fall sleep.
- at the end supposed to be the BEST for your baby.

bad:
- forget how your breast will look when you finish to breastfeeding.
- normally will take longer to your baby to sleep alone in bed.
- not all people in a restaurants or public places are ok with breastfeeding .

advice: if you can and WANNA, do it!.
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  #88  
Old 05.10.2011, 11:02
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Women who work full time have someone to look after their children don't they ? In which case the parenting share is equal. The "fathers are lazy layabouts while women run everything" is a bit of a myth really. The whole family puts in effort when raising a child. I certainly will be tommorow morning when I feed our daughter at 5.30am as I do each morning before work.

Single parents are an entirely different case and have admiration from everyone because they manage a difficult situation completely by themselves.

The posting was slightly tongue in cheek, everyone knows parenting is not all joy, but there was a bit too much man-bashing going on without making some retort.
I didn't see a great deal of man bashing - just an example of the pressures on women breast feeding may be that their partner doesn't want them to - I don't buy this theory however.

Regarding it being an equal parenting partnership - I think it really depends on if you bottle or breast feed. My experience has been that due to breast feeding I found myself pretty much doing everything - I was fine with this as I was at home while my husband was working every day - but those night feeds used to be tough - sat feeding while husband was snoring next to me in a lovely deep sleep - but the idea of waking him was ludicrous, what could he do? plus he had to get up for work.

If you bottle feed then it's a different kettle of fish, dads can do night feeds or early morning feeds, truly sharing the parenting role - this is where you are coming from Mike and it's great, I think some men may be envious at the heavy role you have been able to play in your daughters early life. If anything I feel men may object to their wives breast feeding as it excludes them too much
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  #89  
Old 05.10.2011, 11:16
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Women who work full time have someone to look after their children don't they ? In which case the parenting share is equal.
Nope. When they get home, they're typically the ones who clean and take responsibility for the children. Childcare is almost always chosen by the women too. If you look at the research, it's still women who "run the home" in the sense of the parenting role, housekeeping and decision-making.

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The "fathers are lazy layabouts while women run everything" is a bit of a myth really. The whole family puts in effort when raising a child. I certainly will be tommorow morning when I feed our daughter at 5.30am as I do each morning before work.
Nobody is using such a dramatic, exaggerated statement. The reality is that on average, it's nowhere near evenly shared.
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Old 05.10.2011, 11:25
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Nope. When they get home, they're typically the ones who clean and take responsibility for the children. Childcare is almost always chosen by the women too. If you look at the research, it's still women who "run the home" in the sense of the parenting role, housekeeping and decision-making.
Of all the families we know working full time (mum and dad) this is never the case. Mums and dads each have equal roles to play at home and I don't know of any couple where the wife solely took on the duty of finding and choosing daycare.

It's not just an expat thing either - the Swiss families we know with working mum and dad are the same.

I certainly don't "run our home" - it's a limp-along day-to-day chaos we are both party to.

If you are working full time with kids, and expecting one partner to take on all the domestic/home stuff you're heading for a massive wake up call.
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Old 05.10.2011, 11:51
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Of all the families we know working full time (mum and dad) this is never the case. Mums and dads each have equal roles to play at home and I don't know of any couple where the wife solely took on the duty of finding and choosing daycare.

It's not just an expat thing either - the Swiss families we know with working mum and dad are the same.

I certainly don't "run our home" - it's a limp-along day-to-day chaos we are both party to.

If you are working full time with kids, and expecting one partner to take on all the domestic/home stuff you're heading for a massive wake up call.
All families I know are the exact opposite but then again, I'm looking at Canadian and British families (i.e. friends back home). My own parents were the same. My dad never cleaned. He cooked for dinner parties only and all decisions on childcare were done by my mother. My mother was home for our toddler years but worked full-time after.

Mind you, we're both just doing the anecdotal thing. I'm definitely not familiar enough with Switzerland to assume anything beyond statistics I've seen.

The good news is that men today do more housework than they used to. But the division of labor in the home is still a very unequal one. At the same time, I don't personally fit the statistics either but I also don't dispute them based on my 'equal' situation.
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Old 05.10.2011, 11:56
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Nope. When they get home, they're typically the ones who clean and take responsibility for the children. Childcare is almost always chosen by the women too. If you look at the research, it's still women who "run the home" in the sense of the parenting role, housekeeping and decision-making.
No they arent, its equally shared.



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Nobody is using such a dramatic, exaggerated statement. The reality is that on average, it's nowhere near evenly shared.
No they arent, its equally shared.

Looks like we will have to just disagree.
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Old 05.10.2011, 12:02
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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All families I know are the exact opposite but then again, I'm looking at Canadian and British families (i.e. friends back home). My own parents were the same. My dad never cleaned. He cooked for dinner parties only and all decisions on childcare were done by my mother. My mother was home for our toddler years but worked full-time after.

Mind you, we're both just doing the anecdotal thing. I'm definitely not familiar enough with Switzerland to assume anything beyond statistics I've seen.

The good news is that men today do more housework than they used to. But the division of labor in the home is still a very unequal one. At the same time, I don't personally fit the statistics either but I also don't dispute them based on my 'equal' situation.
I haven't seen any statistics to fit your criteria. I don't see anything that shows "% of household and childcare chores taken on by husbands and wives that both work full time"

Despite Googling it.

When my son was at daycare there was an even split of mums and dads doing drop-of and pick up. Most of those parents were doing an equal share of running the house (ok, so most had cleaners) but the rest of it is pretty equally split.

You'll see when you have your child. What parents were doing when we were babies and children is not necessarily what parents are doing these days. Times move on.

I had a load of ideals and pre-conceptions before my son was born but, I think for most new mums, most of them go out of the window as soon as reality hits.

The only thing my husband couldn't do was breast feed the baby but he took up the reins on the other stuff.
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Old 05.10.2011, 12:06
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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I haven't seen any statistics to fit your criteria. I don't see anything that shows "% of household and childcare chores taken on by husbands and wives that both work full time"

Despite Googling it.

When my son was at daycare there was an even split of mums and dads doing drop-of and pick up. Most of those parents were doing an equal share of running the house (ok, so most had cleaners) but the rest of it is pretty equally split.

You'll see when you have your child. What parents were doing when we were babies and children is not necessarily what parents are doing these days. Times move on.

I had a load of ideals and pre-conceptions before my son was born but, I think for most new mums, most of them go out of the window as soon as reality hits.

The only thing my husband couldn't do was breast feed but he took up the reins on the other stuff.
well said. This is exactly my experience too as a father. So out of a sample of 3, it seems 66% of people asked found that the work was shared equally.
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Old 05.10.2011, 12:13
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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well said. This is exactly my experience too as a father. So out of a sample of 3, it seems 66% of people asked found that the work was shared equally.
But to be fair, I think I also had the "I'm the wifey, I have to do mum-stuff when the baby arrives" kind of dreams when I was pregnant.

The arrival of the baby with all the related drama and exhaustion puts things into a new, less rosy perspective. Especially when you are both working.

Had to laugh the other morning - hubby was nancying around preparing Znuni for junior and I was down in the cellar covered in oil cursing the puncture in my bike tyre.

Not because we're weird about role switching but I hadn't been fast enough to get suited up for work so drew the short straw for the bike tyre change.
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Old 05.10.2011, 12:14
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Nope. When they get home, they're typically the ones who clean and take responsibility for the children. Childcare is almost always chosen by the women too. If you look at the research, it's still women who "run the home" in the sense of the parenting role, housekeeping and decision-making.
[/QUOTE]Nobody is using such a dramatic, exaggerated statement. The reality is that on average, it's nowhere near evenly shared.[/QUOTE]

Speak for yourself. This is very evenly spread in many households. Actually not true in ours as my hubby does more than me on the housework and childminding side. Including the morning and night feeds! We decided on the krippe together. We visited the various ones available, weighed up the pros and cons, then made the decision together. More and more parents are sharing the role.
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Old 05.10.2011, 12:44
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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Speak for yourself. This is very evenly spread in many households. Actually not true in ours as my hubby does more than me on the housework and childminding side. Including the morning and night feeds! We decided on the krippe together. We visited the various ones available, weighed up the pros and cons, then made the decision together. More and more parents are sharing the role.
I did speak for myself. It's evenly shared in my home. But that's not the trend when it comes to reality and I'm not going to generalize based on my personal experience.

Link to a press release about an Oxford University study that supports the view that yes, men are doing more but it's still disproportionate to the role of women. http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stori.../112304_1.html

Belkin wrote a NY times article and said "And women still perform twice the housework and three times the child care that men do, even in homes where women are the primary breadwinners." No reference cited though so more than up for debate, of course.

Like I said, it's fab news that men are doing more but it's still unequal:

Hook, JL (2006) Care in contest: Men's unpaid work in 20 countries, 1965-2003. American Sociological Review: 71 (4), pp. 639-660.

If you read the studies, you can see it's not an easy case of men being 'lazy' and other exaggerated stereotypes. There are a zillion other factors at play. It's still great news that the gap is closing in some areas but don't kid yourselves that your personal experiences (which I share) are representative of full equality here.
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Old 05.10.2011, 12:44
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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<snip>When my son was at daycare there was an even split of mums and dads doing drop-of and pick up. Most of those parents were doing an equal share of running the house (ok, so most had cleaners) but the rest of it is pretty equally split.<snip>
I hate to say it, but it is still the case that most women still do the majority of the housework - whether or not they are earning the same. [discussion here and here for starters, if you spend more time, you'll find more]

Just like it is usually women who will look after sick relatives, so women now not only have to look after the kids (+/- husband ) + her parents (who aren't dying any younger you know), but also the surviving parents of her husband (who are also not dying). [You'll have to trust me on this one, I have the stats but they are confidential, so can't share]

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well said. This is exactly my experience too as a father. So out of a sample of 3, it seems 66% of people asked found that the work was shared equally.
Sorry, MikeB, I just don't think that you can use EF to be an example of "normal society". I would suggest - at great personal risk - that most people on EF are strictly middle-class and thus not in a majority. I think you'll find that if you look across the whole of society, women do the chores and if they can get the (or "a" ) man to help even just a little bit, they are doing better than average.
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Old 05.10.2011, 12:52
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Re: Power and breast feeding

Amazing how a thread can drift (nothing wrong with that per se- it is a very normal process, even if surprising at times).


MikeB, the only purpose of this thread was to say that, there are SOME cases, in SOME communities and for SOME women/families (especially extended families where the daughter in law lives with the son's parents) - where women are pressured NOT to breastfeed. As well as others where women feel pressured TO BF when they don't want to, as many have (rightly stated).

In no way is it 'men bashing' to say that the support of a husband/male partner is very important, whatever the mother feels is best for her and the baby, surely.
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Old 05.10.2011, 13:35
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Re: Power and breast feeding

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I did speak for myself. It's evenly shared in my home. But that's not the trend when it comes to reality and I'm not going to generalize based on my personal experience.

Link to a press release about an Oxford University study that supports the view that yes, men are doing more but it's still disproportionate to the role of women. http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stori.../112304_1.html

Belkin wrote a NY times article and said "And women still perform twice the housework and three times the child care that men do, even in homes where women are the primary breadwinners." No reference cited though so more than up for debate, of course.

Like I said, it's fab news that men are doing more but it's still unequal:

Hook, JL (2006) Care in contest: Men's unpaid work in 20 countries, 1965-2003. American Sociological Review: 71 (4), pp. 639-660.

If you read the studies, you can see it's not an easy case of men being 'lazy' and other exaggerated stereotypes. There are a zillion other factors at play. It's still great news that the gap is closing in some areas but don't kid yourselves that your personal experiences (which I share) are representative of full equality here.
What I find highly annoying is that you are right, and I have to admit it.

Yes, okay if I look at the majority of our friends/acquaintances (full time /part time working moms and dads) it's not even. Not even close. The moms are slogging away until all hours and begging for a cleaner which is categorically being denied due to the 'waste' of money. Many of the moms are tired, oh so tired. Lots of the dads are still out doing their thing.

I just feel sorry for my hubby and those other dad's that really do pull their weight around the house and on the parenting side (how can I not praise a hubby who does the night and morning feeds). Mine does more than his fair share, which makes having a kid possible in our household. I just wish those dads would not always be over looked.
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