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Old 23.11.2011, 21:00
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Fancy a Ceasarian? New UK ruling.

So the UK Government says any woman who wants one can have one, medical grounds or not.

The cost will be ginormous (at the time when budgets for essential medical treatment for life threatening conditions are being cut), never mind the risks of un-necessary operations. Madness (and I am fully aware many won't agree).
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Old 23.11.2011, 21:03
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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So the UK Government says any woman who wants one can have one, medical grounds or not.

The cost will be ginormous (at the time when budgets for essential medical treatment for life threatening conditions are being cut), never mind the risks of un-necessary operations. Madness (and I am fully aware many won't agree).
Why does the government have to get involved in a person's choice of salad?

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Old 23.11.2011, 21:34
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

People need to be reminded that it's a big operation and that although natural birth is painful, a lot of people are fine again very soon after the birth. A caesarian is a huge operation and I believe it makes life after birth quite hard in regards to breastfeeding positioning, picking up and putting down the baby etc...

I worked with a few girls who said they were "too posh to push" - only kind of jokingly. A couple of years ago when I was pregnant in the UK, I was under the impression that if you went on about long enough they'd give you what you wanted. It's a waste of money of course, but I've heard about what a pleasurably experience it is giving birth without doing any of the pushing!
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Old 23.11.2011, 21:47
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

I had a caesarian for our first, a sideways breech - and I am so grateful for that. And a normal delivery for second. The pain and difficulties after Caesarian were unimaginable - I recovered extremely quickly from normal birth. Just doe not make any sense.

The cost of un-necessary caesarians has to come from somewhere- the Government is not proposing any additional funding for this - at a time where essential, life-threatening treatment are being cut. It is nothing short of criminal.
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Old 23.11.2011, 21:47
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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So the UK Government says any woman who wants one can have one, medical grounds or not.
Really? You don't even need to be pregnant?
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Old 23.11.2011, 21:48
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

Interesting topic...I am not at all very versed on it.

The majority of female friends (mostly nurses as well) who I've heard discuss the topic have been in favour of C-sections. Reasons included, unwanted stretching/tearing associated with natural birth, and the pain/discomfort along the lines of "too posh to push" as yasmina so colourfully put it.

As some one who has gone under the knife many a times, I usually have quite a bit of confidence in the modern surgeon's abilities, that being said, my last unnecessary surgury did have complication, but not overtly life altering. If you're cool with the ugly scars, that's the biggest issue in my experience.

Again, not anywhere near an expert on the topic, so would like to hear some opinions (for/against/whathaveyou)
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Old 23.11.2011, 21:51
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

1st Baby

Natural birth: 42 hours labor, 5 cm episiotomy (cut deep layers of skin, muscles, nerves) almost lost my baby. Took months to heal and be painless. Scar in and out my vagina.

2nd Baby

C-Section: 15 minutes, spoke about football with the medical team, baby was there. First day; worst pain I ever had, by the 3rd day I was walking my baby in the hospital's parc. Have a 10 cm scar (cut deep layers of skin, nerves by NO muscles since they pull them each sides). Took few weeks to be back to normal. Have numbness around the scar but that's all, no pain what so ever, like nothing happened.

If I was going to have a third child (which won't happen) I would go for C-Section without a second of doubt. For myself and my both kids, it was the best decision I took.

Don't regret it, ever!
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Old 23.11.2011, 21:56
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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1st Baby

Natural birth: 42 hours labor, 5 cm episiotomy (cut deep layers of skin, muscles, nerves) almost lost my baby. Took months to heal and be painless. Scar in and out my vagina.

2nd Baby

C-Section: 15 minutes, spoke about football with the medical team, baby was there. First day; worst pain I ever had, by the 3rd day I was walking my baby in the hospital's parc. Have a 10 cm scar (cut deep layers of skin, nerves by NO muscles since they pull them each sides). Took few weeks to be back to normal. Have numbness around the scar but that's all, no pain what so ever, like nothing happened.

If I was going to have a third child (which won't happen) I would go for C-Section without a second of doubt. For myself and my both kids, it was the best decision I took.

Don't regret it, ever!
Interesting, as I've heard from many a female source, that 'childbirth is the most painful experience a human will go through'. (Conversely I've heard some females say that it was a piece of cake, just popped the baby out and got on with my day).

I personally never had really any severe pain involved with surgury.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:02
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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Interesting, as I've heard from many a female source, that 'childbirth is the most painful experience a human will go through'. (Conversely I've heard some females say that it was a piece of cake, just popped the baby out and got on with my day).

I personally never had really any severe pain involved with surgury.
I think it makes a difference how the woman's hip are. If they are enough large to pass a baby's head, it is easier indeed. Doctors told me my pelvis was too small, Gyn-Ob didn't want to believe it and well, the rest was a very bad trip.

I know a girl who choose right away for a c-section for her first child. She told me she didn't want to go through the whole birth process. Like it or not, she has the right to do so, her insurance covered it. It is not my place nor anyone else to tell someone how to give birth.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:04
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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Interesting, as I've heard from many a female source, that 'childbirth is the most painful experience a human will go through'. (Conversely I've heard some females say that it was a piece of cake, just popped the baby out and got on with my day).

I personally never had really any severe pain involved with surgury.
I went through the whole birth thing with relatively few problems and made a good recovery. I probably looked like a ripped out fireplace immediately afterwards but the drugs (epidural) made it all quite manageable.

Had a great doctor and a midwife steering the whole thing, even though there was a risk of caesarian at one point if things hadn't started moving.

I think it's a bad move to make it more accessible in the UK. The costs, as Odile says, are far higher than a natural birth and good birth management in the majority of cases means caesarians could be kept to a minimum.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:05
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

A lot of problems can result from cesareans. My home state no longer allows elective cesarean before 39 weeks. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44148964.../#.Ts1Q_WCfueM
Interesting how these policies are being enacted almost simultaneously. The big difference in the two places is the insurance model.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:07
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

Nil you were very unlucky with your first birth - and probably you shouldn't have been left in labour so long. This is not normal. And of course you did have medical reasons for the second baby and would for a third. And again if the specialist confirmed that you had a disproportion in your pelvic size and the baby's head (which a scan can easily confirm).
However, would you really advocate that ALL women should have Caesarians without any medical evidence that there are any medical reasons for this?

The pain after a Caesarian is due to strong natural contractions after giving birth when the baby breastfeeds. In normal circumstances this is not a problem and helps a woman womb and other bits to contract and recover their natural shape. But when you are scared and your 'innereds' upset by an operation - it is very painful (which is why few mothers who have Caesarians choose to breastfeed).

To what extent do you think it is appropriate to cut essential medical services budgets in order to pay for Caesarians on demand?
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:09
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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I went through the whole birth thing with relatively few problems and made a good recovery. I probably looked like a ripped out fireplace immediately afterwards but the drugs (epidural) made it all quite manageable.

Had a great doctor and a midwife steering the whole thing, even though there was a risk of caesarian at one point if things hadn't started moving.

I think it's a bad move to make it more accessible in the UK. The costs, as Odile says, are far higher than a natural birth and good birth management in the majority of cases means caesarians could be kept to a minimum.
Also on Sandgrounder's note, many of the people I've personally heard stories from, are generation Yers where the 'trampstamp' tattoo has been popular apparently eliminating the option of an epidural. Also a deciding factor for them to prefer c-sections when the time comes.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:11
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

We've already got a general Thread somewhere on this subject. I think this Thread should really be about the UK spending a lot of public money on unnecessary operations.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:17
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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We've already got a general Thread somewhere on this subject. I think this Thread should really be about the UK spending a lot of public money on unnecessary operations.
Indeed. After watching a documentary a while ago about the strain morbidly obese mothers are putting on the NHS in the UK, perhaps they could combine the caesarian with a gastric bypass to save some money...
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:19
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

If a woman chooses to have an elective C-section, she should be able to do so - but not with public funds.

The C-section rate in the US is 35% (both elective and necessary) and it's getting more and more popular to schedule one- one running joke is that doctors want to get their golfing games in and not be "on-call".

When I came to France, I wanted an elective one and to my shock and horror, my doc said "no, only if medically necessary"...!!! I was really upset at first but then came to realize that France has an excellent system of fully educating and preparing women for vaginal birth at very low cost. What's also essential is that they have a very thorough after childbirth program to help women physically get back to normal - all paid through insurance. Lastly, because midwives here take care of almost everything, they're a lot cheaper than having a doctor wait while you go through labor.

So that's what's missing in the US - lack of insurance paid programs to help women before and after. Also if you have a vaginal birth, you're expected to go back to work a lot sooner than having surgery. A friend of mine painfully went back to work 2 days after a vaginal birth for fear of losing her job. And because Americans are privately insured, they can choose a C-section at no cost to the public - that's where it differs with NHS.

Now here I am expecting our first child next week - prepared and confident - and I can't imagine ever having considered a C-section in the first place.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:19
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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perhaps they could combine the caesarian with a gastric bypass to save some money...
...or a tubal ligation.

I'm just saying.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:20
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian?

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Nil you were very unlucky with your first birth - and probably you shouldn't have been left in labour so long. This is not normal. And of course you did have medical reasons for the second baby and would for a third. And again if the specialist confirmed that you had a disproportion in your pelvic size and the baby's head (which a scan can easily confirm).
However, would you really advocate that ALL women should have Caesarians without any medical evidence that there are any medical reasons for this?

The pain after a Caesarian is due to strong natural contractions after giving birth when the baby breastfeeds. In normal circumstances this is not a problem and helps a woman womb and other bits to contract and recover their natural shape. But when you are scared and your 'innereds' upset by an operation - it is very painful (which is why few mothers who have Caesarians choose to breastfeed).

To what extent do you think it is appropriate to cut essential medical services budgets in order to pay for Caesarians on demand?
No.

If someone has a private insurance and wants to have the C-section, go for it. But if your health system is like Canada, I don't agree either. With the public health insurance back home, it is such a disaster, people are waiting in the emergency sometimes for days!!! So I wouldn't want the government to approuve a unecessary procedure that cost so much money. I would approve if a woman would want to pay it herself with private health insurance.

If someone doesn't have a medical reason she should be able to choose how she wants to give birth and accept the cost coming with it.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:29
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian? New UK ruling.

musings - thinking of you and all fingers crossed. Looking forward to hear your news soon. xx

Nil, I am glad you agree that the burden on an NHS types system is not acceptable. Don't reply if you don't want to - but where were you left in labour for so long?

However it is not just about cost and ability to pay. Obstetric aneasthesia can be very dangerous for both mother and child - any major operation carries great risk (cutting into bladder, or other part, hernias, DVT's, and so may other complications). Could say that in a way allowing a mother to have an un-neccesary operation just because they can pay is a form of 'reverse' discrimination - as their ability to pay puts them at greater risk, if you see what I mean (tough some would say - but the baby is not responsible perhaps?). Even if they pay, the use of professionals (perhaps 10 x more than normal birth) and operating theatres, etc- still carries a heavy burden on the system overall. Whilst Specialists are in theatre doing un-necessary (private) operations, they are not available for their NHS work.
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Old 23.11.2011, 22:35
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Re: Fancy a Ceasarian? New UK ruling.

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musings - thinking of you and all fingers crossed. Looking forward to hear your news soon. xx

Nil, I am glad you agree that the burden on an NHS types system is not acceptable. Don't reply if you don't want to - but where were you left in labour for so long?
Basel University Hospital.

The doctor was a young guy who was pretty overwelmed by the situation. The midwife was a very experienced lady who had to take control at a certain point and tell the doctor what to do. She finally called the doctor in chef of the hospital who came to assist the doctor.

Sadly, I heard many similar stories about that hospital. This is why, for the birth of my son, I went to Bruderholz hospital which was absolutely awesome!
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