Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > General off-topic  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 07.01.2012, 00:47
sniveri's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 205
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 115 Times in 58 Posts
sniveri has earned the respect of manysniveri has earned the respect of manysniveri has earned the respect of many
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Yep, I am not against bonuses, after all I am currently having bonus contract too. However I am against bonuses which are paid without any good reasons. Like nowadays we are paying off bankers mistakes even we did not have anything to do with it, and in same time those same bankers are getting huge bonuses.

I do not think this topic is ruined in any way, bonus paid for good performance in work is always good thing. If you contributed some extra, like new inventions, upgraded production or stuff like that, then bonus should be applied.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 07.01.2012, 09:39
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 13
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
FranzoesischOhne has no particular reputation at present
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
Yep, I am not against bonuses, after all I am currently having bonus contract too. However I am against bonuses which are paid without any good reasons. Like nowadays we are paying off bankers mistakes even we did not have anything to do with it, and in same time those same bankers are getting huge bonuses.
I like your logic: "I'm not against bonuses, because I have a bonus contract too."

There is quite a bit of discrepancy between what you think is happening in the real world and the reality. Far fewer people in the banking industry are receiving "huge bonuses" than they did before. Some of the people who are (still) receiving bonuses do so because it is part of their work contract (e.g. a "guaranteed bonus" unrelated to current performance of the bank as a whole). I say honouring a work contract IS a "good reason", your mileage may vary. There may come a time when your work contract entitles you to a "bonus", although your employer may be in financial dire straits. Will you then forfeit your bonus or will you hold your employer to the contract? Think about it. "Matters of principle are usually only applied to others" I wrote before.

In hindsight, maybe the banks should not have entered into such contracts, but there is little we can do to change that now. Well, the banks can fire them, but they may have a golden parachute in their contracts as well, which may be more expensive still. Lastly, difficult as it may be to comprehend, some of the banks that received taxpayer support, are making money, entitling some bankers under the terms of their work contracts, to bonuses. Receiving taxpayer support does not void existing work contracts you know?

I am always rather offended yet bemused by people making random accusations about how "they" are paying for bailing out banks. In Germany, half the population receive more money from the government than they pay in taxes and I believe around a quarter don't pay any income taxes (e.g. Arbeitslosengeld, they are affectionately known as the "Hartzer" in society). Ask any of the Hartzer and they will tell you that are outraged that they are paying for bailouts and banker bonuses. Then they will ask you what the bankers' contribution to society is. As if Mehmed Türk, who has been unemployed all his life and doesn't speak a word of German, contributes a LOT to society! "Politically incorrect" I believe is the term for asking valid questions that people don't want to face the reality of.

I guess I will probably be banned on EF for speaking the truth, which is that most people are completely f**ked up when it comes to other people's money. In this respect, no it is not possible to have a sensible discussion about money in general and bonuses in particular. Not in EF at least, where jealousy and communism prevails.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 07.01.2012, 12:01
JBZ86's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Zurich and various mountains
Posts: 3,709
Groaned at 520 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 4,258 Times in 1,944 Posts
JBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
Based on ... someone defending bonuses instead of getting out the pitchforks?
That's the way the cookie crumbles here.
Disagree with the masses and you are a trouble maker.

This particular poster has often made things up in what he reads
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 07.01.2012, 13:17
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,753
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,644 Times in 7,830 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

in the normal course of things, people get paid a lot either because they are good at something or they do something nobody/few can or wants to do.

for example, i hate sports, but i wouldn't say no to taking david beckham's place. but guess what? nobody would pay me £x million because i can't play football that well. many girls could earn lots of money by going into the vice industry, but most will not want to do this for various reasons.

similarly, many people either do not have the aptitude to work in a high paying bank job, or may not have the desire to do so.

i've never worked in a bank, though i have nothing against it, just never thought of it. but i don't begrudge someone their job/bonus just because i can't or don't do that job.
__________________
By replying to this post, you hereby grant Phil_MCR a royalty-free license to use, in any way, anything posted by you on the internet. If you do not accept, stop using EF and delete your account.

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 07.01.2012 at 13:52.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 07.01.2012, 13:22
sniveri's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 205
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 115 Times in 58 Posts
sniveri has earned the respect of manysniveri has earned the respect of manysniveri has earned the respect of many
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
I like your logic: "I'm not against bonuses, because I have a bonus contract too."
Yep, what I tried to say that the bonus system actually works better than flat rate, atleast in real industry. I don`t get bonuses every year, only when I do something that went better than expected.

Quote:
View Post
There is quite a bit of discrepancy between what you think is happening in the real world and the reality. Far fewer people in the banking industry are receiving "huge bonuses" than they did before. Some of the people who are (still) receiving bonuses do so because it is part of their work contract (e.g. a "guaranteed bonus" unrelated to current performance of the bank as a whole). In hindsight, maybe the banks should not have entered into such contracts, but there is little we can do to change that now. Well, the banks can fire them, but they may have a golden parachute in their contracts as well, which may be more expensive still.
That is true, I can not say what is happening in banking sector currently, good to know that you have some insider information available. For example I am not even sure if this banking crisis is a real thing or is it just a dirty trick to form the new "Great Germany" without wars.

Quote:
View Post
Lastly, difficult as it may be to comprehend, some of the banks that received taxpayer support, are making money, entitling some bankers under the terms of their work contracts, to bonuses. Receiving taxpayer support does not void existing work contracts you know?
Yep, and there comes the double standard. When other companies do not have money to pay the salaries, they will be firing people, but banking sector can always force other people to pay. Does this sound right?

Quote:
View Post
I am always rather offended yet bemused by people making random accusations about how "they" are paying for bailing out banks. In Germany, half the population receive more money from the government than they pay in taxes and I believe around a quarter don't pay any income taxes (e.g. Arbeitslosengeld, they are affectionately known as the "Hartzer" in society). Ask any of the Hartzer and they will tell you that are outraged that they are paying for bailouts and banker bonuses. Then they will ask you what the bankers' contribution to society is. As if Mehmed Türk, who has been unemployed all his life and doesn't speak a word of German, contributes a LOT to society! "Politically incorrect" I believe is the term for asking valid questions that people don't want to face the reality of.
I can not say anything about other countries but here in Finland basic salary is something like 1500-2200€/month,minimum tax rate is something like 20-25%. Living costs are much like in Switzerland. Now put the 10% raise to income tax rate, 2% raise to VAT rate + other raises here and there. Try now live with that income and let`s see if you would be pissed off? Personally I am in better position than that but I am really worried where this all ends up. In reality everyone can not be bankers, we still need workforce for regular stuff..

In Finland people can not avoid paying taxes, it needs lawyers and other crooks to set up the schema, and it will cost much. Also we don`t speak German, and I did not really get that point.

Quote:
View Post
I guess I will probably be banned on EF for speaking the truth, which is that most people are completely f**ked up when it comes to other people's money. In this respect, no it is not possible to have a sensible discussion about money in general and bonuses in particular. Not in EF at least, where jealousy and communism prevails.
I was glad that you opened up and hopefully you will not get banned, I am always after a good discussion Hopefully you were joking about the jealousy and communism part, I am pretty sure that everyone is just looking for fair play.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 07.01.2012, 14:52
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 13
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
FranzoesischOhne has no particular reputation at present
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Interesting to notice that after writing about Mehmed Türk, my popularity went from 2 reds ("quite unpopular") to neutral.

The other day I spoke out (politely if I may say so myself) in another thread against what I considered to be a racist comment about a black person. I was groaned at and criticized by quite a few.

Lesson learned: in order to gain popularity in EF,
- blame the bankers for whatever is upsetting you
- blame Turkish and black people.



Apologies for my off-topic musings.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 07.01.2012, 14:58
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post

The other day I spoke out (politely if I may say so myself) in another thread against what I considered to be a racist comment about a black person. I was groaned at and criticized by quite a few.

Lesson learned: in order to gain popularity in EF,
- blame the bankers for whatever is upsetting you
- blame Turkish and black people.
On the other thread, you also got some people supporting you. Stop being such a drama queen. You probably need more than 8 posts before you start to draw conclusions about how to gain popularity
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 07.01.2012, 15:16
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 13
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
FranzoesischOhne has no particular reputation at present
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
On the other thread, you also got some people supporting you. Stop being such a drama queen. You probably need more than 8 posts before you start to draw conclusions about how to gain popularity
Reading other people's posts, who have substantially more postings to their name, I conjecture that talking out of one's arse works magic for one's popularity rankings (no, I won't mention names)

Rest assured, I obviously wasn't (am not) after popularity points. Don't understand though why I'm stuck at 8 posts. Regardless.

Back to topic.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 07.01.2012, 15:31
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,753
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,644 Times in 7,830 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
Reading other people's posts, who have substantially more postings to their name, I conjecture that talking out of one's arse works magic for one's popularity rankings (no, I won't mention names)

Rest assured, I obviously wasn't (am not) after popularity points. Don't understand though why I'm stuck at 8 posts. Regardless.

Back to topic.
see here for your reputation:

http://www.englishforum.ch/usercp.php

you'll find that adjustment to neutral was not related to any racist remarks
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 07.01.2012, 15:43
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post

Rest assured, I obviously wasn't (am not) after popularity points. Don't understand though why I'm stuck at 8 posts. Regardless.

Back to topic.
Exactly. Posts in "Off Topic" don't count
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 07.01.2012, 15:53
sniveri's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 205
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 115 Times in 58 Posts
sniveri has earned the respect of manysniveri has earned the respect of manysniveri has earned the respect of many
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

One more comment about the bonus stuff: when your bosses are looking who gets the bonusses they usually go trough every persons achievements and that gives some more visibility for the employee. It is not unusual that there are "Hey, did we really have someone working at this position?"-moments.. It is great reward that you get noticed, and can have positive effect on your career. Also if you never get the bonus, even how hard you try, then you might be better in some other position.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 07.01.2012, 18:37
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,428 Times in 10,577 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
Lesson learned: in order to gain popularity in EF,
- blame the bankers for whatever is upsetting you
- blame Turkish and black people.
Nooo...it's yanks and jews, you got it all wrong. In case you didn't catch the sarcasm there, and you haven't been here long enough to know I am basically yank and 100% jew, it's all a big self deprecating joke, really.

This place is far from racist, me thinks, or at least those few years I have been on board. You have to take posters with a pretty big grain of salt, know them more, read up, lurk. And not everyone is a rep whore, either.

Quote:
View Post
I guess I will probably be banned on EF for speaking the truth..
Truth is appreciated, nobody will ban you for that. For a duplicate account, for sure.

Quote:
View Post
..which is that most people are completely f**ked up when it comes to other people's money.
I don't think so at all, actually..And especially here, in a country where most people are doing well. Most folks here could care less. It's more the "I am loaded", or ever repeating "Is 200 000fr a year enough" that get's old to people. Check out our Employment/Salaries subsection.

Quote:
View Post
..communism..
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H. Pestalozzi

“The only difference between a rut and a grave is a matter of depth.” S.P. Cadman

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." A. Einstein
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 07.01.2012, 18:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,135
Groaned at 356 Times in 291 Posts
Thanked 16,448 Times in 8,361 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
Interesting to notice that after writing about Mehmed Türk, my popularity went from 2 reds ("quite unpopular") to neutral.

The other day I spoke out (politely if I may say so myself) in another thread against what I considered to be a racist comment about a black person. I was groaned at and criticized by quite a few.

Lesson learned: in order to gain popularity in EF,
- blame the bankers for whatever is upsetting you
- blame Turkish and black people.



Apologies for my off-topic musings.
Add the French and Romanians on the list with people to bash.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 10.01.2012, 12:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Vaud
Posts: 4,518
Groaned at 491 Times in 320 Posts
Thanked 4,099 Times in 1,952 Posts
CorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond reputeCorsebouTheReturn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rbs-set-4-0...HRlc3QD;_ylv=3
haha!

83% owned by public money, firing more people and still gives 4Million bonuses...

Why not, if the owner are stupid enough to let them do...
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 10.01.2012, 21:18
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 13
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
FranzoesischOhne has no particular reputation at present
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

Quote:
View Post
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rbs-set-4-0...HRlc3QD;_ylv=3
haha!

83% owned by public money, firing more people and still gives 4Million bonuses...

Why not, if the owner are stupid enough to let them do...

Prior incentives, that have become part of his contract, are now being paid out to Mr Hourican. Anything less would have been a breach of contract. From an accounting point of view, the incentives have no impact on the bank's earning in 2011/2012 - they had been booked already in 2009. To suggest this is a 2011 bonus is quite simply misleading. Cameron and MSM couldn't care less.

The options granted to Hourican are now worthless - this the article fails to mention, it probably doesn't fit their biased undertones. And the shares have lost half of their value (ditto). In plain English, that's 4 million pounds less in compensation, a multiple of what the average taxpayer makes in his/her lifetime.

So here we have an incentive scheme that has been stretched across several years, where the recipient suffers financially if the bank he works for does poorly, and the media still find fault.

As for the takeover of ABN, hindsight being 20/20, it's easy to say it was a bad decision on the part of RBS and their partners. However, Mr Hourican is not to be blamed(morally or financially) for this costly mistake, since he was employed by ABN at the time. It comes with such a hefty takeover price that RBS were keen to retain key ABN management. I tip my hat to Mr Hourican.

Plain stupid reporting with the sole purpose of poisoning its readers minds. No wonder the financial industry has been able to milk so many people dry over time. "Never give a sucker an even break" - W.C. Fields.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 29.01.2012, 21:05
Uncle Max's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Züri
Posts: 7,553
Groaned at 164 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 8,424 Times in 3,486 Posts
Uncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can we have a sensible discussion about bonusses?

It's no secret to the seasoned bank employee that two out of five team members won't receive a bonus, as there's an "identified need for improvement", which is sucker talk for "We don't care about you and prefer you to resign before Q2 results, plus all the more Bonus for us to share if you're dissed". Team heads are TOLD to cut some members out. It's not an option to put all of the team forward for bonus. I wonder why it's contractual not to talk about compensation with colleagues?

Watch this space when the mass redundancies are announced at the big banks in late Spring.
__________________
Wave ¦ Synthpop ¦ 80's ¦ Alternative ¦ Party ¦ Sat 24.03 Provitreff Zurich
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ed Bob: Can we have the wall of shame? economisto Forum support 21 12.10.2010 22:48
Can we afford to have children on one salary in Switzerland? kimba1 Daily life 129 07.02.2010 19:42
Can we have a list of things we arn't allowed to talk about please. Mikers Complaints corner 45 08.01.2010 12:11
FREESAT: launches May 2008 can we get it here? [apparently we can] AbFab TV/internet/telephone 98 01.03.2009 17:42
I can't believe we don't have a hug icon on this forum! Morgannon Forum support 37 30.06.2008 01:55


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0