Hit the nail on the head there mate, its exactly the same in Australia - after all we are just really another state of the US.

Men need to remove this balance of power from women by making them go dutch from the very start. As I said earlier, going dutch or agreeing to take turns paying on the first date is a good way to weed out those type of women. If she doesn't doesn't want to see you again because of it then she's actually doing you a favour.

I am glad to hear that European women aren't like this so much. Could it be that perhaps they aren't as materialistic as american women?

Yes, but in this case, the sex was a given, I just wanted to go to a good restaurant!

Tom

Well yes, I have seen first hand that women can indeed be abusive. Not only physically but emotionally as well. She was VERY manipulative and it was a classic cycle of abuse. I attempted to break up with her many times, but she would have this emotional power to get whatever she wanted and make people feel sorry for her. The final time I broke up with her was very tough... she bought me $400 worth of flowers (so big they came in a pot, not a vase), tried to guilt me into getting back with her etc. She would often say things like "you'll never find another girl as good/caring as me, you'll be alone forever" blah blah, and sadly I used to believe it.

A lot of people fail to realise that men also have emotions, and are often abused emotionally by women. There seems to be this attitude (especially in Australia) of "stop being a wimp" and "toughen up" and "be a man". I really feel for those men out there who never get to see their kids again, due to the legal system heavily favouring women by default. Many of them lose their wife, their kids, their house, and also most of their life savings. Many are forced onto the streets due to the lack of men's shelters or support.

Watch this video about men being victims of domestic violence in the UK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlWQrxVFJ7M

Sure are, especially in fields such as IT. Its mostly with the bigger companies.

When I graduated from university many of the bigger companies would state things like "we are an equal opportunity employer for women", everyone knew this meant they had quotas (which were kept secret), they just worded it in such a way so it didn't cross the line of discrimination.

In a way this could actually be seen as insulting to women, because they would be given a job primarily based on the fact that they have a vagina, and not on their own merit.

Ahh, did you really have to spell it out like that? Seriously? I'm pretty sure that we all know what physical characteristics outline the differences between women and men.


Meanwhile, although it can be (sometimes "is") somewhat insulting, at times, for some, it is only these measures which make it possible for "least likely" members to make it into a particular field.

Males are generally not encouraged to be nice, to work in ways that require supporting another even at their own expense, while females often are. Likewise, females are not encouraged to seek success individually or to go into fields where their intellect will shine the way young males are.

So, if a woman IS interested in these things, she may have been too intimidated by the insularity of such courses which would lead to those type of jobs to take them as regularly. Another thing that happens (a couple of my female friends are engineers, they say this happens often) is that even when they do take these classes and look for careers in these fields, the treatment they often receive is cold and uncomfortable at best, hostile or outright abusive at worst..

How well prepared for such a job do you think you'd be if you had jerks distracting you with taunts and abuse while you were trying to study?


Of course, the same goes to some degree with regard to males in "traditionally female" studies and occupations. I think males who intend to be nurses (as an example) are disadvantaged because the whole of society pushes them to strive for "more" in some way - as if the more distant relationship of a doctor-to-patient is superior to the (typically) closer nurse-to-patient.

I guess teaching may be similar too, for males, but I'm not sure... three of my most favorite teachers were males and one of my most hated was a wicked old biddy.

Anyhow, as I tried to point out before, "Affirmative Action" isn't only about giving jobs to women and / or minorities in every case, it also helps get (white) males into job openings as well, where the environment and situation warrants.

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The Joys of Opticianry

Well, this thread has been wonderfully interesting to read. I'm new here so I do not know how to thank or groan. I'd like that information first, please. There were so many postings along the way that I wanted to respond to in that fashion.

Next, I'd like to say that I like being a woman and I like my breasts. I like sharing them with whomever is my current man. I still feel equal in doing that--and sometimes my man partner is so happy, I feel I have the "power." Curious how bosoms can cast a spell...just glands and fat tissue....but I digress....

Last, I don't mind getting a cup of coffee or an icy beer for my man or my friends or any person who happens to be someone I care about. And sometimes I'll even offer to get one for an acquaintance, in a given social situation.

I don't mind if a door is held open for me and I always say, "Thank You."

In the 70s when the feminist movement was emerging in America, I was almost made to feel like I had chosen to be a second class citizen because I still appreciated men doing things for me that I clearly could have done for myself (like open doors)--by the WOMEN.

So bottom line for me, let women CHOOSE their place and their role. And if they are happy, stop going to battle for them.

But if a woman wants to strive to have equality in pay for exact same job performed as the man in the next cubicle to hers, there is something dreadfully wrong with the system that perpetuates that. Dreadfully wrong. Same pay for same job, no matter what the plumbing is in your pants--indoor or outdoor plumbing.

If you choose to groan or thank me, just tell me how you did it. Thx!

Welcome to the forum Bobbie Jean!

After you've gotten 10 posts, you'll see some additional buttons appear on the posted-posts. There will be Thanks, Groan and Edit, in addition to the Quote and whatever is there by default from the start.

Thank You, Peg A. I had no idea and I could find no where that groaning and thanking were explained. Heck...half the time I get lost maneuvering. But I'll get the hang of it soon...learning curve and all.

This one annoys me. In this modern day I don't see why particular things have to be done just because someone is a certain gender. Why not just hold a door open for anyone to be polite, regardless of gender? I think women should do it for men too. There are still some men who will go out of their way to give up a seat on a bus/train for an able bodied woman. I am unsure of why they think women need such special treatment? It just isn't logical to me.

That's exactly it. You can encourage women into certain roles all you like, but the bottom line is they are wired differently to men and most of the time they will choose careers that involve people/social interaction. Men usually gravitate towards careers involving science/maths/engineering. Although this may have something to do with social/cultural norms, I believe a lot of it is already hard wired into the brain.

I sometimes hear women say things like "if there were only women on this planet it would be a far better place". Would it really? If there were only women, you probably wouldn't be using the internet right now, a computer, or possibly even have electricity. Just about every leap and bound in scientific discovery has been by men. Whats that I hear you say? Because women weren't allowed to? True, but even if they were, I doubt you would still see many women in areas of science/maths/engineering/physics. Today women are free to choose such areas, but most of them still CHOOSE not to. Again, this is primarily due to the differences in the brain. Women do have a lot to be thankful for, because if it weren't for men we'd probably still be living in the stone age now.

didn't you attend dating 101 classes? a burger entitles the man only to a blow job. for full on sex, you need to pay for a 3 course meal.

I do this for everyone, regardless of gender, and would expect anyone to do it for me.

You seem to be oozing hatred for the female gender. Maybe it's just the way you're writing (as someone else has already suggested). Do you like women at all? I mean apart from sexually.

You're not paying attention.

Women are often ill-suited to some types of jobs and likewise men ill-suited to others because they are groomed that way from early childhood.

Girls aren't praised for being smart, they're praised for being nice. Girls aren't praised for being strong, they're praised for being pretty.

Meanwhile, boys who are nice and "pretty" also get the short end of the stick, being called gay (and not in a nice way) from very early on, especially these days.

If you want to see effective change, start treating children of both genders the same, without any "pushed" expectations for likes and abilities from very, very young... IF we, as a society can do that, I'm sure you'll see how capable men are in "traditional" female fields and also how capable women are in "traditional" male fields.

Now this is just tiresome and your bitterness shining out.

I'm sorry you were emotionally abused by a woman. I'm sure it is hard to get through. It may be a bit less difficult for you if you speak to your priest / preacher or if you seek the help of a therapist.

For me, having my ass beat by my father (on one very memorable occasion, it went on until I pissed myself) until I hit him back when I was 19, being told my whole life I was a stupid bitch (and worse), I've found that while therapy doesn't make it go away, it does make me less likely to lash out at other people.

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The Joys of Opticianry

Are you *ng kidding me? This is trully insulting and I am reporting this post.

It is sexist and discriminatory. Change women with black people and tell me how this sounds. I can see why you have such a hard time with women, because like me they think you are an ass.

Just as there are people who want to keep a financial tag on a relationship from the start to ensure each person pays precisely for his or her half, so too are there people who like it when one person provides financially. Relationships for me are not about tabs at all. Both sides have needs and in a happy relationship, these needs are mostly fulfilled. That may mean a man or a woman is the only one working and the other person stays at home. Or both parties work. Or...whatever.

I appreciate that some people like to go Dutch, as the OP described, although it's not for me. So I wonder now, if the OP lives with a woman, how will you manage the household finances? Food bill? What if one of you makes significantly more than the other? Are certain expensive foods you buy in the cupboard off limits for the woman? If the OP (and anyone who's strict on the Dutch idea) decides to have children, how will you manage the costs? Who pays for the kid(s) when you go out to eat? How can you potentially both put the exact same amount into a joint family account if one makes much more than the other - is this then equal?

There's no harm in one person paying or both splitting. Even though I really don't like going Dutch, I would never have written off a guy on a first date over something like this as the OP would if they want him to pay. But then again, I perhaps don't feel as strongly on this issue as he does.

Some people love to be the one to pay. It doesn't mean the person who accepts is a gold-digger. There are many people who love to take care of the person they are with financially. Remember that there are many ways to take care of someone - money and otherwise. If the man cooks most of the time, is the woman then a lazy slave-driver as opposed to a gold-digger?

In my partnership, my husband is a student/SAHD and I am the only one who works. My husband doesn't put a dime into the financial pot but he's the most generous man I know. There is no "my" money or "his" money. It's our money.

And you know what? We still naturally do some of those fluffy, often traditional things that are associated with one gender. JUST because I'm a woman, he'll walk on the outside of the sidewalk near the traffic, with an arm wrapped protectively around my wee shoulders. And JUST because he's a man, I'll...well let's leave that one censored.

Equality to me in a relationship isn't about who pays more or kisses the other person more or does more with the kids. It's about how happy both people are with one another. That's the true measure of equality for me.

There's a series of lectures on advertising that a woman named Jean Kilbourne has been doing since around the 70s or so. She does new ones every so often and I've seen one of them (can't recall which though). What you say is exactly in line with what she discusses in her lectures. In one example, she shows clothing ads for young kids and the boys are always in these aggressive poses whilst the girls are shy and demure. This kind of conditioning starts so early.

To jump back to the topic of male violence in relation to "early grooming," I was watching a movie last night called "Take Shelter." In it, there's a scene where the woman slaps the man. Now she's still portrayed as this lovely thing for the remainder of the movie. This kind of acceptable slapping is one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to violence against men. I see this all the blasted time. I think if we could get this mentality out of movies/tv, we'd be taking a really big step.

Slapping is always degrading unless it's in the bedroom.

well, to an extent there is some truth in this.

men are generally the risk-takers in society. they are the ones who are sent off to war, to do life-threatening jobs and illegal acts (look at the prison population). the toll on the male side of the species is evident in the life expectancy.

this risk-taking also manifests itself in higher pay and more of the top jobs, but that is just one half of the extended bell curve - don't forget the other half comprising of many who have the low-paying hard jobs, or who take the criminal path and end up in prison. by and large, women tread the more cautious path and in doing so, the fairer sex affords the fairer pay.

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and it isn't in the bedroom?

Well I said that I will stay away from this thread but...I was waiting for someone to finally kick in...thanks nil
I really appreciate the patience of some people with this guy...many thanks to peg and isabela...but...people...for crying out loud...the guy has some serious issues and it is clear to me that there is absolutely no point in wasting time with him. The more people, in a nice manner, respond the more aggressive he becomes and he offends people big time. I am not so nice and patient...get help buddy! And I mean it in the nicest way possible!

Good gracious no.

As in, not always. Different folks, different strokes. Or slaps. Or what have you.

We have women astronaut, women soldiers, women scientist, women spy, women police officer, women IT, women everything.

We talk about equality of salaries in the same field same level of experience and education.

Not comparing a teacher with a rocket scientist.

But a female teacher with a male teacher with the exact same qualifications. I had a male coworker who had much more experience than me and I had a higher salary. Why? Just because he was a local and it was accepted to abuse them. Was it fair? Hell no! I was mad about it, he should have had a better salary than me.

We talk about equality between genders in a same field and qualifications. Calling women incapable to invent anything we have now is dumb and uneducated.

I guess we got our unique Australian sample of a new kind of Taliban...