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  #3121  
Old 19.02.2018, 21:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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  #3122  
Old 19.02.2018, 21:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Many handguns don't have external safety mechanisms.
And many do.

Don't you think that, around children, it would be better to have a gun with a safety mechanism?
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  #3123  
Old 19.02.2018, 21:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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...I think we can all agree that there is something remarkably wrong with American gun legislation.
Yes, we can.

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...It's eighteen firearms incidents in schools this year.

What part of that are you finding difficult to understand?
But it's not actually 18 incidents in schools in terms of students actually being shot or in danger. That's what the fuss is about. When the term "school shooting" is used it conjures up images of Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc. where many kids were killed and/or injured.

IMO, there's a big difference between kids being shot at vs. a gun being fired somewhere on property identified as school grounds, even if it wasn't aimed at anyone.

Did you read the article that Ticino Tom linked? Snippet from the article:

Quote:
...Take, for example, what it [Everytown] counted as the year’s first: On the afternoon of Jan. 3, a 31-year-old man who had parked outside a Michigan elementary school called police to say he was armed and suicidal. Several hours later, he killed himself. The school, however, had been closed for seven months. There were no teachers. There were no students.
That simply wasn't a school shooting. A dude shot himself in a parking lot of a building that was no longer being used as a school. The organization has now removed this one from its list.

Also from the article, the bit I agree with and where my perspective is coming from:
Quote:
...The figures matter because gun-control activists use them as evidence in their fight for bans on assault weapons, stricter background checks and other legislation. Gun rights groups seize on the faults in the data to undermine those arguments and, similarly, present skewed figures of their own
To answer your question about the school safety officer, I don't know why the safety wasn't on but my guess is he forgot. Why did he have a gun? I'd guess because the prevailing attitude in much of the U.S. is that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to have a good guy with a gun.
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  #3124  
Old 19.02.2018, 21:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I think we can all agree that there is something remarkably wrong with American gun legislation.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. This is what happens when you try to solve complex problems with simple solutions. Mexico and South Africa may not have as many school shootings, but they have 3x and 6x the murder rate of the USA respectively. Is somehting remarkably wrong with their gun legislation too?
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  #3125  
Old 19.02.2018, 21:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. This is what happens when you try to solve complex problems with simple solutions. Mexico and South Africa may not have as many school shootings, but they have 3x and 6x the murder rate of the USA respectively. Is somehting remarkably wrong with their gun legislation too?
Yes.
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  #3126  
Old 19.02.2018, 22:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Did you read the article that Ticino Tom linked?
If you had read my post then you would know that I quoted a couple of those
'non-shooting incidents' where a gun was shot (and luckily no one was killed), in schools.

You do appreciate that a lot of the gun deaths in the U.S. are classified as 'accidents'?

If someone dies, in a US school (or indeed anywhere) do the parents and family feel better if it was an accident?

If you were honest with yourself, you'd realise that gun death figures are probably being manipulated on both sides of the argument (in this thread, probably more on the pro-gun side) yet you choose to focus on the anti-gun side.

Perhaps you ought to come clean and let us know your stance as you don't appear to be sitting on any fence I can see.
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  #3127  
Old 19.02.2018, 23:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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...If you were honest with yourself, you'd realise that gun death figures are probably being manipulated on both sides of the argument (in this thread, probably more on the pro-gun side) yet you choose to focus on the anti-gun side.

Perhaps you ought to come clean and let us know your stance as you don't appear to be sitting on any fence I can see.
What the actual...? In my final quote above, I quoted the part of Tom's article I agree with, which clearly says that both sides are using statistics to prop up their stances. How exactly is this me picking sides?

Since you've forgotten what I posted way up-thread a few times, I'll reiterate even though I didn't think it was necessary.

I grew up in a house where guns were used weekly for recreational purposes. My parents won trophies in clay pigeon shooting. My first few jobs were at a gun range. I helped my parents re-load their gun shells starting long before I was old enough to drive. My family tree is full of military and police veterans. Many of my family members concealed-carry legally every day. Why you think I am firmly on the anti-gun side is beyond me.

Now - that is not to say I am pro-gun all the time either. I favor responsible recreational gun ownership. For me, that means no one needs an assault rifle. No one needs a gazillion rounds of ammo. I don't mind folks hunting as long as they use the animal for food, etc. and not just trophies. I don't mind people owning handguns and concealed carry so long as they're not criminals and have been through gun safety courses and have proper respect for the weapon. I think the U.S. culture tends to glorify gun ownership. I don't think arming teachers is going to prevent tragedies like this in the future.

Most importantly, I acknowledge I don't have all the answers but I'm willing to have a reasonable discourse about the problems and how to solve them. What about you, besides your making this into some sort of personal thing about me?
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  #3128  
Old 20.02.2018, 08:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I'm actually sitting on the fence.

I have never owned a gun, nor have any of my blood relatives (relatives by marriage, sure, including my wife).

I have friends with guns and friends without guns.

Most Americans do not even own guns.

Tom
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  #3129  
Old 20.02.2018, 10:13
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'm actually sitting on the fence.

I have never owned a gun, nor have any of my blood relatives (relatives by marriage, sure, including my wife).

I have friends with guns and friends without guns.

Most Americans do not even own guns.

Tom
Not sure anecdotal info cuts it, though. According to this (OK so it's from 2009 but I don't think much has changed in the meantime) for every 100 residents in the US there are 101 guns owned.


EDIT - according to this, it's 89 guns per 100 residents (2017)

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 20.02.2018 at 10:15. Reason: Found more up to date info.
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  #3130  
Old 20.02.2018, 10:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Not sure anecdotal info cuts it, though. According to this (OK so it's from 2009 but I don't think much has changed in the meantime) for every 100 residents in the US there are 101 guns owned.


EDIT - according to this, it's 89 guns per 100 residents (2017)
Most people who own guns own more than one.

So most people do not own one, in fact, only about one in four do, and half the guns are owned by 3% of the population:

https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership...-three-charts/

Tom
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  #3131  
Old 20.02.2018, 10:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Most people who own guns own more than one.

So most people do not own one, in fact, only about one in four do, and half the guns are owned by 3% of the population:

https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership...-three-charts/

Tom
Given the gravity (not to mention the regularity) of the situation and the eye-watering death toll, which is hard to ignore whichever way you chop it, a lot of the discussion here and in the wider media is edging towards the futility of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, though.

I guess it's a media tactic loved by the government, too. Let the discussion wrap itself in statistics, counter statistics, protests and counter protests, experts for and experts against until it blows itself out. Until the next time. Rinse and repeat.
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  #3132  
Old 20.02.2018, 10:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Not sure anecdotal info cuts it, though. According to this (OK so it's from 2009 but I don't think much has changed in the meantime) for every 100 residents in the US there are 101 guns owned.


EDIT - according to this, it's 89 guns per 100 residents (2017)
Actually not the same thing as there's a relatively small number of Americans with an almost unbelievably massive number of guns. According to this 42% of American households have at least one gun.

There is a nice CNN analysis here. Two stand-out results from that...:
- There are more public mass shootings in America than in any other country in the world. American makes up less than 5% of the worlds population but holds 31% of global mass shooters
- Gun homicide rates in the US are 25.2 times higher in the US than in other high income countries

and before anyone starts to use the distraction of UK knife crime, the overall homicide rate in the US is 4.88/100,000, in the UK it is 0.92. There is no developed, high-income country (as per the CNN definition) with a higher overall homicide rate than the US.
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  #3133  
Old 20.02.2018, 11:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Meanwhile:

"A children's baseball team defended its decision to continue with a fundraising effort, in which the winner will receive an AR-15 assault rifle."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43112771

Tom
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  #3134  
Old 20.02.2018, 11:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I have never owned a gun, nor have any of my blood relatives (relatives by marriage, sure, including my wife).

I have friends with guns and friends without guns.
That's my experience of my American friends too, but I suspected you'd be the first person to groan if I posted that. Only two of my (20ish) American friends own guns, a further one has a gun in the home which belongs to his elderly father, and another guy has one at work as part of his job but doesn't take it home. Of the two who own guns, one is a ex Marine turned college professor who has a handgun and a single shot sports rifle, which are kept locked away so that the grandkids don't stumble upon them. The other has literally dozens of weapons, works closely with gun designers on testing, trains personal security professionals and public, etc...

By contrast, almost all of my OH's family and friends owned guns when they lived in S.A. Only his mum and one of his sisters-in-law didn't.
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  #3135  
Old 20.02.2018, 11:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Meanwhile:

"A children's baseball team defended its decision to continue with a fundraising effort, in which the winner will receive an AR-15 assault rifle."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43112771

Tom
This is part of the problem. Lets ignore the questions of if mass shootings really are an epidemic, if people or guns kill people, what the founding fathers intended by the 2nd etc, etc.

Guns, as a prize in a raffle... so they're like a toaster, or a microwave, or a cellphone, or a tv...

Wait a second, if someone was producing cellphones, microwaves, toasters which took people's lives, then wouldn't the US be the first place to punish the people producing and distributing them?
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  #3136  
Old 20.02.2018, 11:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is part of the problem. Lets ignore the questions of if mass shootings really are an epidemic, if people or guns kill people, what the founding fathers intended by the 2nd etc, etc.

Guns, as a prize in a raffle... so they're like a toaster, or a microwave, or a cellphone, or a tv...

Wait a second, if someone was producing cellphones, microwaves, toasters which took people's lives, then wouldn't the US be the first place to punish the people producing and distributing them?

Undoubtedly.


But then again, the second amendment does make allowances for this:




"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and to award high-powered rifles as prizes in high school sports competitions, shall not be infringed"
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Old 20.02.2018, 11:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Meanwhile:

"A children's baseball team defended its decision to continue with a fundraising effort, in which the winner will receive an AR-15 assault rifle."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43112771

Tom

Does the winner also get a couple of rounds, so he (or she) can start shooting right away?

Reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjdpoqITXk
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  #3138  
Old 20.02.2018, 11:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

No, the rounds were the prize in the Whack-a-mole game.
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  #3139  
Old 20.02.2018, 12:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )



Tom
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  #3140  
Old 20.02.2018, 12:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Most people who own guns own more than one.

So most people do not own one, in fact, only about one in four do, and half the guns are owned by 3% of the population:

https://qz.com/1095899/gun-ownership...-three-charts/

Tom
However, IIRC almost half the population (45% ?) lives in a household with at least one gun. I would assume that of those children who shot someone, most guns are somebody else's. So access to a gun is probably just as important as actual ownership.
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