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  #1041  
Old 09.12.2015, 23:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...up-for-debate/

From the Washington Post.

There was also an article yesterday discussing how liberals talk about guns because they don't want to talk about Islamic extremism. (Think it was the Post too)
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  #1042  
Old 09.12.2015, 23:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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A man was firing into a crowd and no one gets hurt doesn't seem much of a threat to me.
No one got hurt because the criminal got shot by a law-abiding gun-owner.

Looks like a win to me.
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  #1043  
Old 09.12.2015, 23:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

This is the only case I can recall of a normal citizen using their gun to stop a shooter, and a very inept shooter at that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if there were actually cases of people being saved by having a gun I'm pretty sure the gun supporting groups would be making more noise about them.
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  #1044  
Old 09.12.2015, 23:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No one got hurt because the criminal got shot by a law-abiding gun-owner.

Looks like a win to me.
... after the criminal fired several shots "into the crowd", supposedly without hitting anyone. How is it possible to fire a bullet in the direction of a mass of humanity without hitting anyone?

Looks odd to me.

I'm not saying the Über driver was in the wrong, as I don't have anywhere near enough information to make a judgment. But I suspect the reporting of the incident is a little dodgy — some hyperbole has been employed, or some facts have been left out.
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  #1045  
Old 10.12.2015, 00:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is the only case I can recall of a normal citizen using their gun to stop a shooter, and a very inept shooter at that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if there were actually cases of people being saved by having a gun I'm pretty sure the gun supporting groups would be making more noise about them.
According to John Lott estimates, Defensive Gun Use occurs 2.5 million times per year. His study is well respected amongst criminologist, and has been cited by judges when deliberating in favor of gun ownership.

I think gun control/ownership is a topic for criminologist, and it is really in that field that you want to find expert opinions or objectivity about the topic.
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  #1046  
Old 10.12.2015, 00:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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According to John Lott estimates, Defensive Gun Use occurs 2.5 million times per year. His study is well respected amongst criminologist, and has been cited by judges when deliberating in favor of gun ownership.

I think gun control/ownership is a topic for criminologist, and it is really in that field that you want to find expert opinions or objectivity about the topic.
That's certainly true - so why quote an economist?
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  #1047  
Old 10.12.2015, 00:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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That's certainly true - so why quote an economist?
Excuse me, I meant to cite Gary Kleck:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck
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  #1048  
Old 10.12.2015, 00:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Excuse me, I meant to cite Gary Kleck:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck
Interesting, thanks.

However, I'm actually wondering about real cases where someone has stopped a criminal who had a gun - the case normally quoted as a reason for gun carrying.

None of these surveys make that distinction (from the limited underlying data available), they could be pulling a gun to deter a minor crime.
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  #1049  
Old 10.12.2015, 01:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

So the terminology is Defensive Gun Use? From time to time, stories will be published of such case. I recall seeing a website that chronicles DGU cases, from newspaper clippings to police reports. And then there are gun control activists that attempt to debunk or discredit any notion of DGU. Although it does occur, and police reports attest to them, but facts rarely change the minds of those predisposed one way or another.

You might try googling Defensive Gun Use. There are lots of cases of it out there. For the most part, they don't get reported as there isn't an incident to report.
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  #1050  
Old 11.12.2015, 19:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

According to an article in the Guardian here, there were 90,000 gun deaths in the US in the last 3 years.

If ISIS want to kill more Americans they should just try opening some discount gun shops?
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  #1051  
Old 12.12.2015, 01:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Sadly, home invasions are becoming more and more common in the US, there's many, many cases where armed homeowners saved their own lives. Calling 911 and waiting is an option too I guess, but I'd prefer to be armed if possible

Quote:
(CNN)A man has been charged in the home invasion and shooting of a North Carolina mom last week.

Semantha Bunce, 21, a combat medic in the National Guard, was in her Charlotte home breast-feeding her 4-month-old son in her bedroom when intruders barged in Tuesday, November 3, according to CNN affiliate WSOC.
As the intruders broke into the home and opened fire, Bunce fired back with her own weapon.
"I think it was a shock to the intruders just as much as it was to her," her husband, Paul Bunce, told the affiliate.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/09/us...ers-charlotte/

Quote:
An elderly North Carolina man opened fire on three assailants who forced their way into his home, robbed the family, tried to rape his granddaughter and stole his car, reports the Fayetteville Observer.


The home invaders — all three brandishing handguns — corralled Byrd, his wife Judy, 65, and their 19-year-old granddaughter into the back of the home and demanded the couple open their safe.
When the men tried to rape the couple’s granddaughter, Byrd grabbed a gun and exchanged shots with the assailants, Sheriff Kenneth Sealey said in a news release.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/wounded-m...b7sJW15wxSV.99
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A 13-year-old South Carolina boy fatally shot one burglary suspect and scared off a second with his mother's gun, police said.
The unidentified teenager told the Charleston County Sheriff's Office that he was alone on Tuesday afternoon in his family's home, north of North Charleston, when someone tried to break in, according to NBC affiliate WCBD.
The boy grabbed his mother's gun, and then waited at the back door of the home, the station reported. Police say the boy fired repeatedly through the door, and someone outside shot back.



The suspect was hit three times, and a getaway driver rushed him to a hospital in Charleston, where he died of his gunshot wounds, according to an affidavit.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...uspect-n462006

...or just Google for yourself:
https://www.google.ch/search?q=gun+o...homeowner+shot
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  #1052  
Old 12.12.2015, 12:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sadly, home invasions are becoming more and more common in the US, there's many, many cases where armed homeowners saved their own lives. Calling 911 and waiting is an option too I guess, but I'd prefer to be armed if possible

I think he only thing worse than stats is anecdotical evidence used as stats. Gimme the numbers.
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  #1053  
Old 12.12.2015, 12:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sadly, home invasions are becoming more and more common in the US, there's many, many cases where armed homeowners saved their own lives. Calling 911 and waiting is an option too I guess, but I'd prefer to be armed if possible
Looking at both sides of this, how many homeowners brandishing their own guns in an attempted burglary have ended up dead - because they shot back?
(or shot some innocents too).

You said you'd prefer to be armed? Do you even know how to handle a gun? And could you do it under stress?
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  #1054  
Old 12.12.2015, 12:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Calling 911 and waiting is an option too I guess, but I'd prefer to be armed if possible
Just make sure you dont shoot through a bathroom door.
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  #1055  
Old 12.12.2015, 12:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Just make sure you dont shoot through a bathroom door.
In general, one should follow the rule of "dolus eventualis".
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  #1056  
Old 12.12.2015, 14:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Looking at both sides of this, how many homeowners brandishing their own guns in an attempted burglary have ended up dead - because they shot back?
(or shot some innocents too).
How many have died because they didn't shoot back?

Quote:
Two men were charged Monday with murder in the fatal shooting of a pastor's pregnant wife during an apparent break in of their Indianapolis home, court records show.

Blackburn, 28, was shot in the head during the Nov. 10 attack at she and her husband's Indianapolis home and died the next day. The couple's 15-month-old son, Weston, was at home upstairs in a crib but was not harmed in the attack.

Her husband, Pastor Davey Blackburn, had gone to the gym that morning and returned home to find his wounded wife, who was 13 weeks pregnant at the time.
http://abc13.com/news/2-men-charged-...-wife/1095839/


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You said you'd prefer to be armed? Do you even know how to handle a gun? And could you do it under stress?
Yes, everyone who owns a gun should be trained how to use it properly, and in different situations.

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Just make sure you dont shoot through a bathroom door.
You should never shoot a target that you can't identify. Anyone who has had proper gun training would know that.
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  #1057  
Old 12.12.2015, 14:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You should never shoot a target that you can't identify.
I am sure it is not the only criterion, indeed.
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  #1058  
Old 12.12.2015, 15:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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How many have died because they didn't shoot back?

http://abc13.com/news/2-men-charged-...-wife/1095839/
.
Do you answer your own questions or the ones people ask you?

I asked you how many homeowners brandishing their own guns in an attempted burglary have ended up dead - because they shot back?

In this case the pastor's wife didn't shoot back as she didn't have a gun.

That's fact.

You're making a childish assumption that if she did have a gun, she would have defeated two young armed men.


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You should never shoot a target that you can't identify. Anyone who has had proper gun training would know that.
Yet in a previous post, you cited as a positive use of a gun, someone shooting at a burglar through a closed door - who then decided to shoot back.

So which is? You seem to have got your logic a bit twisted and it's hardly at a moment of stress.

I'd hate to be near you if you had a gun because your powers of reasoning appear to be flawed and inconsistent.

Why not keep the guns for the professionals and keep watching the action movies? It would keep everyone safer.

Last edited by Tom1234; 12.12.2015 at 17:03.
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  #1059  
Old 13.12.2015, 12:40
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Do you answer your own questions or the ones people ask you?

I asked you how many homeowners brandishing their own guns in an attempted burglary have ended up dead - because they shot back?
You don't have access to Google?

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I'd hate to be near you if you had a gun because your powers of reasoning appear to be flawed and inconsistent.
I've been referencing guns as protection against home-invasions. Why would you be in my home?

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Why not keep the guns for the professionals and keep watching the action movies? It would keep everyone safer.
It would be great if you told that to all the armed criminals . But you do have a right to defend yourself if armed intruders break in your home. If you chose not to defend yourself, that's your right too.

...as for the "professionals" (ie: police) they make mistakes too, if you follow the news, there's been plenty cases of that lately. So be aware mistakes are not limited only to civilians.
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  #1060  
Old 13.12.2015, 12:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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...as for the "professionals" (ie: police) they make mistakes too, if you follow the news, there's been plenty cases of that lately. So be aware mistakes are not limited only to civilians.
This reasoning applies to surgeons too, but you surely don't conduct surgery yourself.

That being said, we see here two beliefs confronted to each other as beliefs. There is nothing wrong with either beliefs, it's just that there is nothing one can say to the other part to make them reevaluate their belief. The ones believe the benefit of defending oneself with own firearms is greater than the risks of making more victims, the others believe the risks of killing more innocent people and people in general is greater than the alleged benefit of scaring off potential criminals.

Beliefs are beliefs, I don't see where there is space for reasoning here. Sorry.
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