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  #1641  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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In your opinion, is there room, or the ability to put pressure on your government to revoke the gun licences of people on the no-fly list?
yes, and that did not happen with mateen which is ridiculous.
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  #1642  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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i feel we can subtract the gun part, leaving islam as the main issue.
And that's your (and Trump's) opinion, and you're entitled to it. But increasingly, in the face of mounting evidence, it appears that you're both wrong.
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  #1643  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Over 6'000 deaths in just the first half of this year. Only in 725 times were guns used in defence. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
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  #1644  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And that's your (and Trump's) opinion, and you're entitled to it. But increasingly, in the face of mounting evidence, it appears that you're both wrong.
What "mounting evidence"?
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  #1645  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:50
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homophobic attack is encapsulated by islamic attack. it's an attack on the west, our culture, which thankfully includes homosexuality.

So do most Islamic cultures, as far as I'm aware.


Otherwise ISIS would have nobody to throw off tall buildings.

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so it's islam + guns with loose laws in orlando.

since e.g. bataclan was also islam + guns despite strict laws i feel we can subtract the gun part, leaving islam as the main issue.
Yeah, I stopped doing algebra when I left high school. I'm delighted for you that you kept it up!
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  #1646  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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homophobic attack is encapsulated by islamic attack. it's an attack on the west, our culture, which thankfully includes homosexuality.
I'll think you'll find homosexuality occurs in all cultures, as well as huge swathes of the animal kingdom.
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  #1647  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Lets say that no matter how inclusive we make our society and how we interact with other societies there will always be an element of hatred from some sections to another. We don't all agree on all topics on EF - so no chance of it happening at a country/international level.

That means we have a motive.

Now lets look at opportunity. If motive will always exist we have to minimize opportunity. This can be done by monitoring those we know with motive, making it harder for them to carry out an attack. Control on movement for example.

And finally we have means. If after best efforts to control opportunity one still arises it is preferable for the means to be as ineffectual as possible.

Pulling together the Paris attacks required a high level of organization, secrecy and careful planning to bring it all together. Orlando less so.

We won't ever stop the attacks - but perhaps reducing the opportunities and the means might be a good start.
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  #1648  
Old 14.06.2016, 14:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'll think you'll find homosexuality occurs in all cultures, as well as huge swathes of the animal kingdom.
Are you referring to this?!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Biological-.../dp/031225377X

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  #1649  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:07
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So do most Islamic cultures, as far as I'm aware.


Otherwise ISIS would have nobody to throw off tall buildings.


Yeah, I stopped doing algebra when I left high school. I'm delighted for you that you kept it up!
obviously i meant acceptance of homosexuality.

yeah, clearly i have to keep things at high school level here.
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  #1650  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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obviously i meant acceptance of homosexuality.

Homosexuality isn't really accepted in the United States, except in small pockets (such as this nightclub in Florida).


Or do you have a different definition of "acceptance" to that commonly used by speakers of English?
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  #1651  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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yeah, clearly i have to keep things at high school level here.
..and try not to be so patronising
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  #1652  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Homosexuality isn't really accepted in the United States, except in small pockets (such as this nightclub in Florida).


Or do you have a different definition of "acceptance" to that commonly used by speakers of English?
but more accepted than islamic world or not?

"small pockets"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-s...Obergefell.svg
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  #1653  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

As predicted decended into the EF farce. I'm out for now
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  #1654  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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What "mounting evidence"?
The evidence that strongly points to Mateen being deep in the closet, and that his motive for the muders was internalised homophobia associated with his own homosexuality and his inability to express it for fear of rejection by his family -- i.e. the mounting evidence:

- That Omar Mateen was not religious
- That he had no affiliation with Afghanistan, his "country of origin" (having never visited there)
- That Mateen's ex-wife reported that he was mentally unstable and violent (an opinion also offered by ex-co-workers)
- That he had asked a fellow (male) student out on a date
- That Mateen had been seen clubbing at Pulse a dozen times or more
- That he had been a frequent user of Jack'd, a gay dating app.

Not an "Islamic terrorist attack".
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  #1655  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:35
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again, we need to know how many of the 103 + bystanders were actually carrying a gun. gay club = democrats = anti gun. so no guns there, and no some obscure gay gun club is not gonna change that assumption.
1 off duty cop working as security who indeed fire back.

Are you going to say "it could have been worse?"

+ 2 uniformed btw as he was getting in thr club and they Did not stop him.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 14.06.2016 at 15:42. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #1656  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The evidence that strongly points to Mateen being deep in the closet, and that his motive for the muders was internalised homophobia associated with his own homosexuality and his inability to express it for fear of rejection by his family -- i.e. the mounting evidence:

- That Omar Mateen was not religious
- That he had no affiliation with Afghanistan, his "country of origin" (having never visited there)
- That Mateen's ex-wife reported that he was mentally unstable and violent (an opinion also offered by ex-co-workers)
- That he had asked a fellow (male) student out on a date
- That Mateen had been seen clubbing at Pulse a dozen times or more
- That he had been a frequent user of Jack'd, a gay dating app.

Not an "Islamic terrorist attack".
Sure, but if his main insecurity was rejection by his family, this would most likely be down to their Islamic culture which doesn't accept homosexuality.
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  #1657  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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yes, and that did not happen with mateen which is ridiculous.
Thank you. To me, this is the crux of the matter and where there's a chance to make a change that would be acceptable to all sides concerned.

Another question, and I honestly don't know the answer to this one...

When someone is put on a no-fly list, are they formally made aware of it?

Trying to get the process in a row in my mind here, and thinking, if someone is under surveillance, but hasn't been questioned yet, at what point are they put on a no-fly list?
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  #1658  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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1 off duty cop working as security who indeed fire back.

Are you going to say "it could have been worse?"

+ 2 uniformed btw as he was getting in thr club and they Did not stop him.
no civilians though?
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  #1659  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:50
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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no civilians though?
Seems not. But doesnt' matter. 3 trained shooters reacted to it
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  #1660  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Thank you. To me, this is the crux of the matter and where there's a chance to make a change that would be acceptable to all sides concerned.

Another question, and I honestly don't know the answer to this one...

When someone is put on a no-fly list, are they formally made aware of it?

Trying to get the process in a row in my mind here, and thinking, if someone is under surveillance, but hasn't been questioned yet, at what point are they put on a no-fly list?


I suspect that the exact criteria are not publicly known, but according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List


the GAO pointed out in 2010 that at least some of these people can purchase guns.


That is scary, very, very scary.
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