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  #101  
Old 28.11.2012, 19:29
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Feminists don't hate men
Do you have the faintest idea what Femen is all about? It's protesting endemic sex-trafficking and exploitation in Eastern Europe, and they don't have an easy time of it. They're brave women fighting a hard battle.

They aren't saying 'kill men', they're saying 'kill pimps', 'stop sex slavery' and similar things - which, all things considered, is understandable.

I'm touchy about domestic abuse issues, for obvious reasons, but never at my angriest would I have held up that bad shop job or Femen as an organization as proof of institutionalized misandry.

For one thing, you don't fight what you've already defeated.
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  #102  
Old 28.11.2012, 20:01
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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For one thing, you don't fight what you've already defeated.
In politics you do.

Imaginary enemies are better than real ones because they never go away.

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  #103  
Old 28.11.2012, 20:09
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

Juan Sánchez Villa-Lobos isn't an immortal. He's a very naughty boy.
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  #104  
Old 28.11.2012, 22:59
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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In politics you do.

Imaginary enemies are better than real ones because they never go away.

Or...even more so, you don't actually fight what you're trying to defeat. Otherwise you "win" yourself out of a (what seems to be, world over, lucrative) job.
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  #105  
Old 28.11.2012, 23:48
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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I don't think that's accurate at all, women would work fields, tend shops, and so on, there may still have been some gender seperation but the woman at home cleaning and making dinner and shopping all day isn't the role of women throughtout the ages. It wasn't an exclusively male thing to bring in the money.

EDIT As I look around, the exclusive male=breadwinner female=homemaker is a very recent idea, going back 100s of years, not thousands.
Very true, women would work fields, women would tend shops and women would so on, but only in situations where it was life/death based. Sadly very common in the lower levels of society. Unfortunately this wasn't a gender-role issue, this was a basic survival situation. When the matriarch of a family was required to "work the field", "tend the shop" or "bring in money" it meant that she was finished dealing with the the food preparation of the day (which could stem from bleeding of a hunt, preserving for future days as well as meal preparation), Cleaning of the household also took a few days, textile--cleaning was not a trivial deal. It took a good half day per sized garment. Beyond this, the matriarch would not have time to do much other....
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  #106  
Old 29.11.2012, 00:05
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Very true, women would work fields, women would tend shops and women would so on, but only in situations where it was life/death based. Sadly very common in the lower levels of society. Unfortunately this wasn't a gender-role issue, this was a basic survival situation. When the matriarch of a family was required to "work the field", "tend the shop" or "bring in money" it meant that she was finished dealing with the the food preparation of the day (which could stem from bleeding of a hunt, preserving for future days as well as meal preparation), Cleaning of the household also took a few days, textile--cleaning was not a trivial deal. It took a good half day per sized garment. Beyond this, the matriarch would not have time to do much other....
isn't this somehow biological/evolutionary? presumably we have 2 different sexes for specialisation and splitting of roles?
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  #107  
Old 29.11.2012, 00:15
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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isn't this somehow biological/evolutionary? presumably we have 2 different sexes for specialisation and splitting of roles?
Well played, well played. Biologically, there are two different sexes, specialized for two different roles, however society has allowed for both biological sides to have equal opportunities---but, based on the individual's abilities to understand the abilities, opportunities and potential, there is no gender barrier to understand society and strive within.
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  #108  
Old 29.11.2012, 04:45
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Well played, well played. Biologically, there are two different sexes, specialized for two different roles, however society has allowed for both biological sides to have equal opportunities---but, based on the individual's abilities to understand the abilities, opportunities and potential, there is no gender barrier to understand society and strive within.
I used to believe in nature vs. nurture in that parents were responsible in providing gender 'cues' to children which they then adhered to, but then I had a child and was surprised to be proven wrong, particularly since I was, and still am, a female who tends to enjoy primarily male pursuits which I attributed to an early strong bond to my father.

I don't know if I've told this anecdote here before but, even if I have, it was a moment for me that I found groundbreaking: One morning when I was dropping my daughter off at pre-school (in the US), I noticed they had a new wooden layer puzzle of the human body that must have been of european origin since it was, how shall I say, anatomically correct. I started helping the kids put it together and asked if any of them knew what the largest organ in the human body was. Without exception, the girls all pointed to their heads or their hearts and the boys, well, the boys all pointed to their most admired body part. I nearly spewed my coffee trying not to laugh. I gently explained that, no, the largest organ is the human skin. We completed the puzzle and I asked the question again. Without exception, the girls all answered that their skin was the largest organ and the boys continued to point to their favorite body part. Some things are learned and some things are just part of being male or female. I still chuckle when I think of that moment as it really does explain so much later on in life.....

I suppose my point here is that gender isn't something that you just simply decide one day to disregard and that it's a bit more complicated than women making bombs in factories during the war and then going back to boring mom-hood once it's over as that's simplifying it a bit too much. My mom was an MD in the 50s and I didn't have a lot of kids to play with because a number of the moms forbid their kids to play with me since I had a mom who worked and I was a bit 'weird' (yeah, I liked trains and chess...). THAT'S gender terrorism. Fortunately, though I thought my mom was a bit of a kraut beyotch on wheels, I knew a bunch of nasty old hausfrau cows at face value. When I saw one of them at my mother's estate sale, I asked her if it was OK to play with her daughter now that my mom was dead. She blanched and I asked her to leave since, if you can't be nice in life, who gives a shit if you show up for the funeral. You don't need a knife to make lasting wounds.
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  #109  
Old 29.11.2012, 10:23
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Very true, women would work fields, women would tend shops and women would so on, but only in situations where it was life/death based. Sadly very common in the lower levels of society. Unfortunately this wasn't a gender-role issue, this was a basic survival situation. When the matriarch of a family was required to "work the field", "tend the shop" or "bring in money" it meant that she was finished dealing with the the food preparation of the day (which could stem from bleeding of a hunt, preserving for future days as well as meal preparation), Cleaning of the household also took a few days, textile--cleaning was not a trivial deal. It took a good half day per sized garment. Beyond this, the matriarch would not have time to do much other....
So men didn't prepare food? Didn't make bread? Didn't clean textiles? And then you say it's not a gender issue, are you saying that prvilidge and money bring gender roles? Or that being poor is bad because women have to divert themselves away from their womanly things? Is it, that in our natural state ,we just build houses,then leave the women in them to clean them and look after the kids. Where we have an ideal amount of food where it was just enough work for men to hunt food all day, and women clean the house in the same time?
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  #110  
Old 29.11.2012, 11:36
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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So men didn't prepare food? Didn't make bread? Didn't clean textiles?
Of course they did.

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And then you say it's not a gender issue, are you saying that prvilidge and money bring gender roles?
I'll say that wealth, as defined as anything above subsistence living, creates the structure of roles. It was only after humans (or perhaps one of our ancestors) formed social structures that enabled individuals to obtain more resources than these individuals needed themselves (probably initially through hunter-gatherer behaviors) that other individuals were enabled to take on roles not directly related to obtaining food, such as raising or caring for others, clothes or shelter making, and food preparation and preservation. I'll say that as more wealth was accumulated, these roles became more diverse, and more specifically defined. Men and women took on different roles, partly through differences in the dispositions of the sexes, partly through one sex imposing it upon the other.

Now, many societies around the world have accumulated enough wealth that they have created further abstractions to take on these primary roles, that of provider (one doesn't always need to work to provide anymore), and homemaker(maid services/restaurants)/child-rearer (nanny/aupair/childcare service). This, coupled with a significant change in "work" from dangerous, physically grueling manual labor to tool-assisted labor or the product of one's mind, has destroyed the previous paradigm of gender-based roles in society.

As with any paradigm shift, there are always those who resist and cling to the shards of the old paradigm, and those who push for the radicalization of the new paradigm. Is the new paradigm perfect? Probably not. Will it ever be perfect? Probably not; there will always be exceptions. However, the number of people teaching their children to judge individuals as individuals and not as members of a gender group, race, nationality, class, or religious group far outweighs those that teach their children outmoded and prejudicial thought processes.

Our responsibility as a society is to see to the ultimate minimalization of these bad old ideas, to encourage the better, new ideas, and to ensure that we don't also invent new ways to visit old sins upon ourselves.
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  #111  
Old 29.11.2012, 11:45
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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So men didn't prepare food? Didn't make bread? Didn't clean textiles? And then you say it's not a gender issue, are you saying that prvilidge and money bring gender roles? Or that being poor is bad because women have to divert themselves away from their womanly things? Is it, that in our natural state ,we just build houses,then leave the women in them to clean them and look after the kids. Where we have an ideal amount of food where it was just enough work for men to hunt food all day, and women clean the house in the same time?
Of course men have prepared food, made bread or take on the female roles. As well as females taking on male roles, but generally speaking these were the exceptions, and there were less exceptions in history than now. If one wants to analyze trends, one must look at the average. My point to be made is the percentage of people who stick to their gender roles is lower than it has been historically. If you don't agree with it, that is fine, but it is dangerous and naive to argue against average trends citing exceptions and outliers. I'm sure there were also adults all throughout history that played with children's toys, that doesn't mean that toys were generally not used by children.
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  #112  
Old 29.11.2012, 11:59
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

@ Chemmie @Jobsrobertsharpii I think you're looking at it in different timescales...

I'd say the beginning of gender role difference stems from breast feeding, and the fact that baby humans aren't very mobile and require significant, active care. This would naturally keep the female of the specie near her offspring, and her work would reflect what needed to be done in that area.

That isn't to say that what she did was any less demanding than the males' work, just differentiated.

As society developed and wealth emerged, these roles shifted and changed.
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  #113  
Old 29.11.2012, 12:04
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Of course men have prepared food, made bread or take on the female roles. .
is there anyone who doubts this?
if so, they haven't been to Bangkok!


@Poptart, what is a '...kraut beyotch on wheels...'

is that something like a z'nuni wagon??
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  #114  
Old 29.11.2012, 12:09
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Of course men have prepared food, made bread or take on the female roles. As well as females taking on male roles, but generally speaking these were the exceptions, and there were less exceptions in history than now.
Actually during the transition from hunter-gatherers to farmers, it was women who were chiefly repsonsible for agriculture (supplying the vegetables) while men went hunting (supplying the meat). Remnants of this remain visible in Latin for example where the word for framer (agricola) takes a declension form otherwise reserved for words of the female (grammatical) gender and deities associated with soil and agriculture are virtually all female (while interestingly most of the older staple crops are of male gender, so there may be some sexual innuendo in the act of growing them).

So probably, as these societies discovered how to breed their own animals (interestingly called husbandry), men no longer needed to hunt and as looking after animals was not a full-time occupation, were also able to help the women with their crops. So effectrively this is a case of men taking on a woman's job rather than the inverse. The word "daughter" interestingly comes from an Indo-Germanic stem meaning "one who milks", so this shows that at a relatively early stage women must also have been involved in the animal side of farming and not just with the crops.
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  #115  
Old 29.11.2012, 12:29
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

Thanks for the articles, bloody hilarious.
You know women, why marriages fail, according to this article linked by the OP: http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/...ry-bubble.html

The reasons that marriage 'worked' not too long ago were: People married at the age of 20. The wife retained her beauty 15 years into the marriage, and the lack of processed junk food kept her slim even after that.

And the reasons more marriage fail nowadays?
Women marrying at an age when very few years of their peak beauty are remaining.

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  #116  
Old 29.11.2012, 12:38
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Actually during the transition from hunter-gatherers to farmers, it was women who were chiefly repsonsible for agriculture (supplying the vegetables) while men went hunting (supplying the meat). Remnants of this remain visible in Latin for example where the word for framer (agricola) takes a declension form otherwise reserved for words of the female (grammatical) gender and deities associated with soil and agriculture are virtually all female (while interestingly most of the older staple crops are of male gender, so there may be some sexual innuendo in the act of growing them).

So probably, as these societies discovered how to breed their own animals (interestingly called husbandry), men no longer needed to hunt and as looking after animals was not a full-time occupation, were also able to help the women with their crops. So effectrively this is a case of men taking on a woman's job rather than the inverse. The word "daughter" interestingly comes from an Indo-Germanic stem meaning "one who milks", so this shows that at a relatively early stage women must also have been involved in the animal side of farming and not just with the crops.
Ooh, I do loves me a bit of etymology. You had me at "Indo-Germanic" (and because your argument is very solid, but mostly the use of Indo-Germanic )
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  #117  
Old 29.11.2012, 13:06
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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@ Chemmie @Jobsrobertsharpii I think you're looking at it in different timescales...

I'd say the beginning of gender role difference stems from breast feeding, and the fact that baby humans aren't very mobile and require significant, active care. This would naturally keep the female of the specie near her offspring, and her work would reflect what needed to be done in that area.

That isn't to say that what she did was any less demanding than the males' work, just differentiated.

As society developed and wealth emerged, these roles shifted and changed.
Good point. The breastfeeding was a task that could only be done by women, and this has only been (imperfectly) changed very recently, with the invention of baby formulas and the like.

Psychologically, it has been shown that breastfeeding creates strong bonds between child and mother (possibly making it easier for both mother and child for the mother to be more involved in raising the child?), the results of which (mothers raising the children) last well after the child has been weaned.
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  #118  
Old 29.11.2012, 13:29
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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I used to believe in nature vs. nurture in that parents were responsible in providing gender 'cues' to children which they then adhered to, but then I had a child and was surprised to be proven wrong, particularly since I was, and still am, a female who tends to enjoy primarily male pursuits which I attributed to an early strong bond to my father.

I don't know if I've told this anecdote here before but, even if I have, it was a moment for me that I found groundbreaking: One morning when I was dropping my daughter off at pre-school (in the US), I noticed they had a new wooden layer puzzle of the human body that must have been of european origin since it was, how shall I say, anatomically correct. I started helping the kids put it together and asked if any of them knew what the largest organ in the human body was. Without exception, the girls all pointed to their heads or their hearts and the boys, well, the boys all pointed to their most admired body part. I nearly spewed my coffee trying not to laugh. I gently explained that, no, the largest organ is the human skin. We completed the puzzle and I asked the question again. Without exception, the girls all answered that their skin was the largest organ and the boys continued to point to their favorite body part. Some things are learned and some things are just part of being male or female. I still chuckle when I think of that moment as it really does explain so much later on in life.....
Cute anecdote.

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I suppose my point here is that gender isn't something that you just simply decide one day to disregard and that it's a bit more complicated than women making bombs in factories during the war and then going back to boring mom-hood once it's over as that's simplifying it a bit too much.
Nah, we have 4.5 billion years of biological evolution, reinforced by a few thousand years of social structures. That's not going to be completely overturned by a hundred years or so of social change.
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  #119  
Old 29.11.2012, 15:44
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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Actually during the transition from hunter-gatherers to farmers, it was women who were chiefly repsonsible for agriculture (supplying the vegetables) while men went hunting (supplying the meat). Remnants of this remain visible in Latin for example where the word for framer (agricola) takes a declension form otherwise reserved for words of the female (grammatical) gender and deities associated with soil and agriculture are virtually all female (while interestingly most of the older staple crops are of male gender, so there may be some sexual innuendo in the act of growing them).

So probably, as these societies discovered how to breed their own animals (interestingly called husbandry), men no longer needed to hunt and as looking after animals was not a full-time occupation, were also able to help the women with their crops. So effectrively this is a case of men taking on a woman's job rather than the inverse. The word "daughter" interestingly comes from an Indo-Germanic stem meaning "one who milks", so this shows that at a relatively early stage women must also have been involved in the animal side of farming and not just with the crops.
Indo-Germanic? There is no such thing, is there? There's Proto-Germanic and, of course, PIE. The OED says it stems from an IE root that is Greek. I was curious about the 'one who milks' and the IE so I dug around and are you referring to the Farsi? I don't know that it has been credited as a root for daughter. I don't think you can claim the word in its current or IE forms support the claim that women were milking the cows. I'm sure they were, but that isn't the claim to do it by.

Husbandry isn't all that interesting in the context here as it's simply a peasant farmer. No loaded gun pointing at the wife or gender grenade waiting to go off.

And....I should tell you after 8+ years of Latin taught by nuns...you're WAY off on agricola. The fem doesn't indicate gender and, particularly when you look at the adjectives surrounding agricola, you'll see that it's masculine. There isn't much in the way of innuendo with Latin.
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  #120  
Old 29.11.2012, 17:26
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Re: Misandry in the Western Society. The War on Men.

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And....I should tell you after 8+ years of Latin taught by nuns...you're WAY off on agricola. The fem doesn't indicate gender and, particularly when you look at the adjectives surrounding agricola, you'll see that it's masculine. There isn't much in the way of innuendo with Latin.
Isn't that what i said. I said it takes a declension form that is otherwise predominatly associated with the feminine grammatical gender. That's not at all the same as saying the word itself is feminine. There are other examples in Latin of words doing similar things and adjectives always agree with the grammatical gender, not the declension (there are other examples of words that changed their grammatical gender over time but not their declension).

I have a friend who is an anthroplogist and philologist and knows a lot about the origins of words in different languages (not just European ones, as he know quite a bit about Japanese for example) and he says there's much more innuendo in Latin than meets the eye but you have to be dig under the surface to find it, and compare it to the languages and cultures that influenced it. A lot of it is in the subtelties and can easily be overlooked if you take an all too strict and canonical approach. And of course you can't see the language in isolation but see it in the context of what was being said and the social structures and values of its time. Remember, for example, that Rome was the melting pot of cultures of its time. It was the New York or London of the ancient era. And for all their faults, the Romans were no xenophobes but gladly assimilated the best of other cultures into their own.

Last edited by amogles; 29.11.2012 at 17:37.
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