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Old 27.11.2012, 22:40
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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Correct. I think we could let the Kosher eaters decide themselves depending upon the strictness of their observance, but there is a difference between

1. Food which doesn't consist of anything which breaks the Kosher dietary rules

and

2. Food which has been prepared in full accordance with Kosher observance eg fully certified by a Rabbi, no insects etc etc

PS I was talking to an Israeli business colleague recently and it really surprised me to hear him use the term "kosher" (small k) in the way that we Brits and maybe others would use it as slang meaning "genuine". He said "No, I promise that its OK, totally kosher". I smiled and asked him if that is commonly used in Israel for that derivative meaning, not just the dietary laws - he said it is and he believed that the use was sort of imported back into Israel
I on a visit to Israel saw that they have at least three levels of Kosher which mean one-star-kosher is apparently rather "normal", two-stars-kosher is fairly strict, and three-stars-kosher is very strict. I saw this in most restaurants
  #22  
Old 27.11.2012, 22:51
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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Cedre certainly isn't halal. I'd be shocked if any of the restaurants you mention are Halal.
They all in regard to the cooking ARE and MUST BE Halal. As they otherwise would be doomed. I suggest you look at how things get served. the waiters/waitresses will almost never serve the meals and the wine at the same time / together, but always in separate goings. In case of Cèdre and Palme de Beirut and Sultan, the two things even get served by two different persons. Go there and observe carefully and you will see. The managers of Cèdre and Palme are Christians, but have to care about the part of their clientele which is strictly Muslim. The chief at Sultan is a Tunisian Muslim, who however serves some of the best wines all around, but knows how to do business

To give you another example. ALL airplanes of Alitalia enroute to Arab countries (and Israel) only serve full Halal (Kosher) meals, but excel with good wines. And THIS is a reason why some particular airplanes of the fleet are reserved for those operations. Believe me, the Alitalia board service is praiseworthy anyway and on those operations really superb
  #23  
Old 27.11.2012, 23:20
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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I really wish you wouldn't pass yourself off as an Imam, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Have you read the Koran, or just listening to some over zealous fundamentalist Imams. I've studied the issue for some time, and have discussed it with Imams - we actually have a few in the family, and many 'Senior' Hadjs too.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead animal, blood, the flesh of swine, and that over which has been invoked other than the name of Allah, that which has been killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a headlong fall or by being gored to death, that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter (in due form), and that which is sacrificed on stone (altars)." (5:3)

In many parts of the world therefore, where 'modern' Muslims practise their faith with a critical and intelligent study of the Koran- electrical stunning which renders the animal unconscious, but still very much alive- is totally 'acceptable'.

For example, one fatwa oft cited is that of Muhammad Usman, Darul-Ifta, Jamia Sarul Uloom, Karachi. His fatwa has been used to say that stunning is haram, whereas if one reads the fatwa in full you will see that he in fact does not say it is haram at all but in fact that it is completely halal. A few of his comments include:
"As for the ruling regarding the meat of an animal slaughtered in this way [meaning stunned], if the animal was definitely alive at the time of slaughter, and was slaughtered correctly, it would be considered Halal."
  #24  
Old 27.11.2012, 23:56
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

As a Muslim I find it somewhat amusing that so many non-Muslims on this forum have such a good grasp of the ins and outs of the halal process. Kudos to Odile, DB, jrspet and the rest of you.

chapps, I've only read your comments on this thread and another one where you were having a go at Nil, and to be honest I find your style of engagement quite disrespectful. And in this case, I found your opinions a bit bizarre, e.g. food becomes un-halal if it is served at a restaurant that also serves alcohol?! Likewise, on the issue of applying non-lethal stunning to an animal prior to the slaughter, you will find that both the Islam Zentralrat in this country and the National council of Scholars in Saudi Arabia approve the method (I'm only mentioning these two because they represent the more conservative side of Islamic opinion).

And finally, yes, you're right, none of us here are Imams (at least to my knowledge), but can you please share with us your own credentials in Islamic Study?

Wollishofener, thanks for that list. I'm going to try to visit each of those places and find out whether they have certificates of halal-ness from their suppliers. I noticed that Sultan Wipkingen have "halal fleisch" stamped on their menu too: http://www.restaurant-sultan.ch/view...les/kurier.pdf
  #25  
Old 28.11.2012, 00:00
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

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As a Muslim I find it somewhat amusing that so many non-Muslims on this forum have such a good grasp of the ins and outs of the halal process. Kudos to Odile, DB, jrspet and the rest of you.

chapps, I've only read your comments on this thread and another one where you were having a go at Nil, and to be honest I find your style of engagement quite disrespectful. And in this case, I found your opinions a bit bizarre, e.g. food becomes un-halal if it is served at a restaurant that also serves alcohol?! Likewise, on the issue of applying non-lethal stunning to an animal prior to the slaughter, you will find that both the Islam Zentralrat in this country and the National council of Scholars in Saudi Arabia approve the method (I'm only mentioning these two because they represent the more conservative side of Islamic opinion).

And finally, yes, you're right, none of us here are Imams (at least to my knowledge), but can you please share with us your own credentials in Islamic Study?
He had a go at me? Where? I missed it of forgot about it?
  #26  
Old 28.11.2012, 11:12
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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I find your style of engagement quite disrespectful.
Good for you.
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And in this case, I found your opinions a bit bizarre, e.g. food becomes un-halal if it is served at a restaurant that also serves alcohol?!
It can do. A restaurant needs a certificate to be a Halal restaurant and it's unlikely to get one if it serves alcohol. Of course there are exceptions, especially Shia clerics like Ali Sistani rule that as long as there is no alcohol on your table you'll be OK.


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Likewise, on the issue of applying non-lethal stunning to an animal prior to the slaughter, you will find that both the Islam Zentralrat in this country and the National council of Scholars in Saudi Arabia approve the method (I'm only mentioning these two because they represent the more conservative side of Islamic opinion).
As before and since, the majority of Islam has not ruled that pre-stunning is Halal and as before, you should do what you like. Eat pork. Whatever. I am just telling you what is Halal to most Muslims and what is not.

Also, here is an interesting article.

http://halalfocus.net/2012/06/01/sla...er-in-context/



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He had a go at me? Where? I missed it of forgot about it?
It was in invisible ink. The only people that can read it are those going around looking to be insulted.

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Have you read the Koran, or just listening to some over zealous fundamentalist Imams. I've studied the issue for some time, and have discussed it with Imams - we actually have a few in the family, and many 'Senior' Hadjs too.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead animal, blood, the flesh of swine, and that over which has been invoked other than the name of Allah, that which has been killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a headlong fall or by being gored to death, that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter (in due form), and that which is sacrificed on stone (altars)." (5:3)

In many parts of the world therefore, where 'modern' Muslims practise their faith with a critical and intelligent study of the Koran- electrical stunning which renders the animal unconscious, but still very much alive- is totally 'acceptable'.

For example, one fatwa oft cited is that of Muhammad Usman, Darul-Ifta, Jamia Sarul Uloom, Karachi. His fatwa has been used to say that stunning is haram, whereas if one reads the fatwa in full you will see that he in fact does not say it is haram at all but in fact that it is completely halal. A few of his comments include:
"As for the ruling regarding the meat of an animal slaughtered in this way [meaning stunned], if the animal was definitely alive at the time of slaughter, and was slaughtered correctly, it would be considered Halal."
It's important that you do not go by just the Koran as there is probably not a single Muslim on the planet who does so. It's important to look at bodies of jurisprudence which includes the Hadith and a millenium of judicial rulings to discover what is true and what is not in Islam. The majority of these schools have not ruled that pre-stunning is Halal. This is fact.
  #27  
Old 28.11.2012, 11:31
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

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Forgive me for being ignorant but what does halal mean?

is this for real?

maybe this will explain everything for you ?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+does+halal+mean
  #28  
Old 28.11.2012, 12:45
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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HALAL

Arab cuisine
- Cèdre Bellevue
- Cèdre Badenerstrasse
- Palme de Beirut Bertastrasse
- Sultan Wipkingen
- Noon, Niederdorf nr Bellevue

Turkish cuisine
- Manesse, nr Manesseplatz
- Marmara in Rüschlikon at the Thalwil border beside the lake

KOSHER

the Jewish restaurant nr Bhf Enge

PS: vegetarian does not necessarily mean Halal/Kosher, due to ingredients used

To add to the list, Halk PazarI (Turkish shop) at Tramstrasse 10 Oerlikon also has a butcher and imbiss which serves halal meat...
  #29  
Old 28.11.2012, 12:52
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

Chapps, which is why both Kash and myself have quoted islamic authorities, both here in CH and in other much more traditional Muslim parts of the world- which agree that pre-stunned meat, by modern (electric) methods, is not Haram. I can quote authorities from the UK too. Stunning is normally associated with a sharp blow to the head, which clearly contravenes the Koran, and all Islamic authorities.

From the site of Abraham Natural produce hall butchers in the UK:

The act of stunning according to the principles of fiqh (jurisprudence) are not seen as rendering any meat haram as long as the animal is treated well, alive at the time of slaughter and all other necessary actions and conditions are carried out properly. This is the position adopted by the majority of scholars including the late Zaki Badawi and one adopted by the Halal Food Authority. As a result all our meat is 100% halal - this is indisputable for the simple reason that we know that every animal slaughtered is alive at the time of slaughter.

DB has said previoulsy that how Muslim people choose to slaughter their meat is nobody's business but their own. And this is of course the case in traditionally Muslim countries of the world- however if in Switzerland, for instance, I think it is fair enough for said country to have its own rules and laws. Switzerland has managed to find a great compromise, which is acceptable by both 'sides' - the animal is rendered unconscious at the time of ritual slaughter, and yet the Islamic authorities, quite rightly and following the letter of the Koran, find this method 'acceptable' and not haram (forbidden). Most of our Muslim family and friends are interested by that concept, and discussing and studying whether this compromise cannot be adopted in other parts of the world. This may never happen in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but may well be a way forward in more 'Westernised' areas, like other parts of Europe, South Africa, the US, etc. And why not - this was not possible until fairly recently, when new technologies were introduced- and therefore one would hope that some countries and Muslim communities will accept this, having studied the issues carefully.

Last edited by Odile; 28.11.2012 at 13:05.
  #30  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:25
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

Man I still no comprendo..
what means?
you teach me?

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is this for real?

maybe this will explain everything for you ?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+does+halal+mean
  #31  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:39
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

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Chapps, which is why both Kash and myself have quoted islamic authorities, both here in CH and in other much more traditional Muslim parts of the world- which agree that pre-stunned meat, by modern (electric) methods, is not Haram. I can quote authorities from the UK too. Stunning is normally associated with a sharp blow to the head, which clearly contravenes the Koran, and all Islamic authorities.

From the site of Abraham Natural produce hall butchers in the UK:

The act of stunning according to the principles of fiqh (jurisprudence) are not seen as rendering any meat haram as long as the animal is treated well, alive at the time of slaughter and all other necessary actions and conditions are carried out properly. This is the position adopted by the majority of scholars including the late Zaki Badawi and one adopted by the Halal Food Authority. As a result all our meat is 100% halal - this is indisputable for the simple reason that we know that every animal slaughtered is alive at the time of slaughter.

DB has said previoulsy that how Muslim people choose to slaughter their meat is nobody's business but their own. And this is of course the case in traditionally Muslim countries of the world- however if in Switzerland, for instance, I think it is fair enough for said country to have its own rules and laws. Switzerland has managed to find a great compromise, which is acceptable by both 'sides' - the animal is rendered unconscious at the time of ritual slaughter, and yet the Islamic authorities, quite rightly and following the letter of the Koran, find this method 'acceptable' and not haram (forbidden). Most of our Muslim family and friends are interested by that concept, and discussing and studying whether this compromise cannot be adopted in other parts of the world. This may never happen in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but may well be a way forward in more 'Westernised' areas, like other parts of Europe, South Africa, the US, etc. And why not - this was not possible until fairly recently, when new technologies were introduced- and therefore one would hope that some countries and Muslim communities will accept this, having studied the issues carefully.
http://www.halalhmc.org/IssueOfMSandStunning.htm
  #32  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:41
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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I understand that wine and brandy might fail the halal test...
unless you shop around for a sympathetic cleric....
  #33  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:43
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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The meat could have been blessed by the Prophet himself, they serve alcohol in the restaurant therefore it isn't Halal.
Is there any Surah that says meat is not haram if alcohol is served in the same building?

I doubt it.

Because then the halal meals offered on airlines are also not really halal.
  #34  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:45
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Re: Halal and Kosher Restaurants

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Is there any Surah that says meat is not haram if alcohol is served in the same building?

I doubt it.
You mean is not halal...or is haram. No. The meat is still Halal, the restaurant isn't though. As I said, horses for courses, everyone's different and they should do what makes them feel good.
  #35  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:52
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

What if a restaurant serves halal meat and no booze, but in the same building there are apartments above and someone is having a dinner party and is serving booze???

cheers
SC
  #36  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:59
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

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What if a restaurant serves halal meat and no booze, but in the same building there are apartments above and someone is having a dinner party and is serving booze???

cheers
SC
But what happens if I dress two sheep up as Kermit and Miss Piggy before they're slaughtered? If they had the mentality of non-Halal animals but the physicality of Halal animals, which are they? And if Mutton Miss Piggy does a sexy little dance before the slaughter does this mean the mutton will be even more Haram, or is the Sexualisation of Sheep not called into question? All of these are valid questions.
  #37  
Old 28.11.2012, 14:04
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Re: What is meant by Halal ?

First of all I found it a bit bizarre that someone would ask what halal is in the forum without even googling it...but then again after the "ne pas franchir" thread I do not know what to expect.

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Chapps, which is why both Kash and myself have quoted islamic authorities,
Odile I would put Chapps on ignore, it is useless to try to argue with someone who believes what he knows is true, the truth and he would never acknowledge if he were wrong. Well maybe he has some super knowledge, you know like a master's degree in Halalism
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