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-   -   Circumcision: right or wrong? (https://www.englishforum.ch/general-off-topic/16591-circumcision-right-wrong.html)

Wasted 29.07.2010 16:08

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
True brainwaves at work!

Arguing about pros and cons of chopping off a useful organ or part of body Vs bit of skin, which has no use anyway!

What would be the next discussion? Advs/Disadvs of clipping nails Vs clipping eye lashes?

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:11

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 891971)
I do get the feeling that many medical papers on the subject are written by those with an opinion to support.

Well the statistics are also very suspect. As is unfortunately the case with many medical statistics. Very much like the people who say broccoli is good one year, bad the next.

They definitely don't look at the larger picture and the greater population. Putting genital herpes aside for the West and AIDS aside for Africa, where I strongly believe are infections you can avoid if you choose to ... the conditions they describe are either not prevalent or are those that are typically treatable. It is true that in rare case, some of these infections can travel, but in most cases, they are just normal trips to the doc.

The scenario is no different from such infections in other parts of our body, but we don't take take drastic measure to stop them there by removing parts of our bodies.

In the end, it's an ancient tribal ritual that got absorbed into religion. People are free to do what they want to do for religion, but I don't think a parent has a right to hack their son's foreskin due to their superstitions. He can choose to do so when he is informed.

Chemmie 29.07.2010 16:11

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 891973)
You're hilarious. If this was an argument between cutting a whole penis of and not then that would be a reasonable comparison.

Someone who is circumcised can still have sex. Can still enjoy sex. Saying someone has more pleasure with a foreskin than without is purely subjective.

You'd need have the same person doing a before and after with the same women, using the same positions, since there are so many different factors in having pleasurable sex. Saying 'I have a foreskin I have better sex LOL' is just so ignorant.

I haven't read all the publications and studies on the topic, but it seems to be a general consensus that sexual pleasured decreases for those who have had the chop later in life (when it could be compared). Still just statistics, but generally the best comparison available.

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:13

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 891973)
You're hilarious. If this was an argument between cutting a whole penis of and not then that would be a reasonable comparison.

Someone who is circumcised can still have sex. Can still enjoy sex. Saying someone has more pleasure with a foreskin than without is purely subjective.

You'd need have the same person doing a before and after with the same women, using the same positions, since there are so many different factors in having pleasurable sex. Saying 'I have a foreskin I have better sex LOL' is just so ignorant.

Dude, the foreskin is a part of my penis. Just like the earlobe is a part of my ear. Just like fingers are part of my hand. All a part of my body. I don't like cutting of parts of my body. Neither do most people.

As for the rest, I never said anything about it except make a sarcastic response. Argue with that person, not me.

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:16

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 891976)
If you remove the ear lobe, the rest of the ear is still there (and won't function as well).


I ask again, do you have any evidence, that chopping off the ear lobe will reduce the chance of infection? :p


dude, you are confusing posters

I was referring to chopping of the entire ear :D

As for your second questions, best to ask the circumcised. That's their basis.

Gastro Gnome 29.07.2010 16:16

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 891973)
Saying someone has more pleasure with a foreskin than without is purely subjective.

Is pleasure purely subjective? Surely not . . . it's a valid area of scientific study, just as pain is.

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:20

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
No Porsche, you are hilarious. Cuz you think chopping off foreskin is just a trivial thing and a frivolous part of the penis.

Sorry dude, but mutilation ain't cool unless one personally choses to perform it.

Humans have had many barbaric traditions throughout time. Just because some religions continue to practise it or others based on health beliefs from Victorian times, doesn't mean the rest of us won't point out the complete folly of it.

Carlos R 29.07.2010 16:20

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HashBrown (Post 891984)
dude, you are confusing posters

I was referring to chopping of the entire ear :D

As for your second questions, best to ask the circumcised. That's their basis.

You can't chop an ear off. You can only cut the lobe off. The inner and middle ears and imbedded in your head.

Unless you are suggesting sealing up the hole. But that's akin to chopping off the whole penis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 891985)
Is pleasure purely subjective? Surely not . . . it's a valid area of scientific study, just as pain is.

The problem is that pain (and pleasure) are very difficult to study as every person has their own threshold. Some people are able to withstand unbelievable amounts of pain, while others will break down with a mere paper cut.

So to some extent it is subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HashBrown (Post 891990)
<snip> Just because some religions continue to practise it or others based on health beliefs from Victorian times, doesn't mean the rest of us won't point out the complete folly of it.

Ironically, the premise of avoiding STDs by being less promiscuous is more Victorian than the data from research being presented in support of the chop.

29.07.2010 16:20

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HashBrown (Post 891982)
Dude, the foreskin is a part of my penis. Just like the earlobe is a part of my ear. Just like fingers are part of my hand. All a part of my body. I don't like cutting of parts of my body. Neither do most people.

As for the rest, I never said anything about it except make a sarcastic response. Argue with that person, not me.

Come now HB, your personal preference is fantastic but just that, a personal preference. That didn't form the body of your argument (excuse the pun). You compared the unknowable (which is more pleasurable, sex with a foreskin or sex without a foreskin) to that which cannot be experienced but is knowable (born without sight). That is, the latter is pretty much known by those who can see - it's objectively measurable. Foreskin vs. non foreskin sex is like comparing getting kicked in the nuts with childbirth for pain. We can guess, but never really know. So before you jump around with your "my logic's better than yours" hat on, please make sure it really is.

Upthehatters2008 29.07.2010 16:22

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 891897)

After your much-needed counselling to get over the obvious trauma you've (seen others) experienced, let's get down to reality. It's a tiny, useless speck of skin. The newborn doesn't feel it being chopped - they rarely even cry, even at the stage where they are crying due to a wet nappy. Almost everyone goes on to lead happy, healthy lives afterwards and it's a fact that it prevents certain illnesses etc. So, relax, the millions upon millions of people who've had it does are doing just fine.

I am sure Nature has a perfect need and use for it , I see no sign of evolution doing away with it.

There is nothing to be gained from it, and a lot of risk of trauma, regret and anger later on.
Why bother ? Just leave things as they are. Even if just 0.001% have problems (100's , 1000's 10,000's ??) why even risk that ? I just cannot see any gain, over and above medical necessity.

I love my willy. I look after my willy. Willies are great. My partner agrees. I should ensure that my offspring have the same chance with theirs.

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:22

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 891992)
Come now HB, your personal preference is fantastic but just that, a personal preference. That didn't form the body of your argument (excuse the pun). You compared the unknowable (which is more pleasurable, sex with a foreskin or sex without a foreskin) to that which cannot be experienced but is knowable (born without sight). That is, the latter is pretty much known by those who can see - it's objectively measurable. Foreskin vs. non foreskin sex is like comparing getting kicked in the nuts with childbirth for pain. We can guess, but never really know. So before you jump around with your "my logic's better than yours" hat on, please make sure it really is.

Again, I never said this. Someone else did. I made a response comparing the logic to other body removals. Please don't put other posters' words into my mouth.

But you can read those posters' response re the medical study of pleasure comparison.

29.07.2010 16:22

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 891985)
Is pleasure purely subjective? Surely not . . . it's a valid area of scientific study, just as pain is.

Just because something is an area of scientific study doesn't mean someone can't have an opinion on it.

People find different things more or less pleasurable do they not? Comparing the pleasure of one thing versus another is subjective.

29.07.2010 16:22

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HashBrown (Post 891990)
No Porsche, you are hilarious. Cuz you think chopping off foreskin is just a trivial thing and a frivolous part of the penis.

Sorry dude, but mutilation ain't cool unless one personally choses to perform it.

Humans have had many barbaric traditions throughout time. Just because some religions continue to practise it or others based on health beliefs from Victorian times, doesn't mean the rest of us won't point out the complete folly of it.

Oh God....she's been stabbed in the side of the head for no reason and without her consent all as part of an anachronistic cultural stereotype. Cruel, vindictive, disgusting and shameful.

http://leprakans.com/wp-content/uplo...6/img_0160.jpg

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:25

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 891995)
I look after my willy.

Yeah I clean my willy too, and those who do don't have to worry about said infections.

So chop or be clean? I will go with clean.

If you back to the medical studies, you will very clearly see they don't compare people who clean their willy vs those who are chopped. That would be a better comparison. But still the point doesn't matter as the infections they point out are rare or easily dealt with (others easily preventable by lifestyle choices).

29.07.2010 16:27

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HashBrown (Post 891990)
No Porsche, you are hilarious. Cuz you think chopping off foreskin is just a trivial thing and a frivolous part of the penis.

Sorry dude, but mutilation ain't cool unless one personally choses to perform it.

Humans have had many barbaric traditions throughout time. Just because some religions continue to practise it or others based on health beliefs from Victorian times, doesn't mean the rest of us won't point out the complete folly of it.

You think that cutting off the foreskin of the penis is comparable to cutting out someone's colon to prevent cancer? Seriously? Think about it for a while.

And when did I say mutilation was cool? In fact I said I'm not for or against circumcision.

HIV/AIDS only really came to light in the 1980s IIRC so I'm not sure it was a Victorian health concern.

29.07.2010 16:27

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 891995)
I am sure Nature has a perfect need and use for it , I see no sign of evolution doing away with it.

Then you misunderstand evolution. Evolution will keep body parts around where they're not needed any longer if they do not cause inefficiency towards preproduction (including finding a mate, feeding the kids etc). Like the eyebrows or appendix.

Gastro Gnome 29.07.2010 16:29

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 891999)
Oh God....she's been stabbed in the side of the head for no reason and without her consent all as part of an anachronistic cultural stereotype. Cruel, vindictive, disgusting and shameful.

http://leprakans.com/wp-content/uplo...6/img_0160.jpg

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answers given upthread some moments ago, re: the comparative pleasures to be gained from earlobes and nether regions.

Oh, and I wouldn't agree with piercing a baby's ears either.

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:30

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 891999)
Oh God....she's been stabbed in the side of the head for no reason and without her consent all as part of an anachronistic cultural stereotype. Cruel, vindictive, disgusting and shameful.

Agreed.

Except it would not be anachronistic.

Circumcision arose in the middle east back when they needed a belief in a god to justify the world around them and possibly at a time when there was much disease (why the obsession with pigs, bottom feeders, foreskin).

On the other hand, trying to look pretty is still with us.

;)

Who pierces their baby's ears anyways. Most wait till 10+.

Gastro Gnome 29.07.2010 16:31

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 892007)
Then you misunderstand evolution. Evolution will keep body parts around where they're not needed any longer if they do not cause inefficiency towards preproduction (including finding a mate, feeding the kids etc). Like the eyebrows or appendix.

Don't eyebrows do some important things, like stopping perspiration dribbling into one's eyes and also allowing one to frown emphatically or express surprise?

HashBrown 29.07.2010 16:31

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 892007)
Then you misunderstand evolution. Evolution will keep body parts around where they're not needed any longer if they do not cause inefficiency towards preproduction (including finding a mate, feeding the kids etc). Like the eyebrows or appendix.

I guess you don't sweat or walk about in the rain. My eyebrows serve me well.


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