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  #961  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:14
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Do you understand the role of circumcision in those respective religions? Christianity clearly talks about a non physical type of circumcision.
It would be very nice if you would answer the questions posed rather than just throw up more of your own. To answer this one - yes I do - and I'd highly recommend the movie "Uncut" by the Orthodox Jewish scholar - himself circumcised - Eliyahu Ungar Sargon - unfortunately it's no longer available in full for free on the net but this excerpt will give you an idea :

EDIT: Bit explicit for some


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So banning it is quite a different measure from making it optional. It already is optional.
Oh good so you've now accepted that others can practice their religion of any hue - without having to mutilate their children.

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So what's the problem? You'd like to prevent some from practicing their religion?
Of course not - as Faltrad points out - this is about the child's right to not having parts of their sexual organs removed without their consent. You seem to have no problem understanding that when it comes to the female , what is your problem with sexism ?

Last edited by parnell; 11.10.2015 at 12:18. Reason: Insertion of warning about explicit but informative youtube video
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  #962  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:27
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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As a native Minnesotan, I don't recall the gazillion (which we all know is 1x10^WTF?) of immigrants coming into the Twin Cities or hearing about "a lot" of problems from family and friends that still live there.

Any influx of immigrants will bring new challenges. The Finlanders, Germans and Swedes sure screwed over the Chippewa and Sioux. But it's not 1888 and we don't have any more room on the reservations up Bemidji way regardless. The Hmong are sure happy about that.

I do agree that education and enforcement of the current laws are required as is the expectation that they be followed. Or is there some greater level of control you wish to advocate?
Here is a description of the problem, it seems this isn't performed only in Africa.

http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-te...r-dilemma.html

The number of Africa-born immigrants settled in the US (for MN - 19%). The "gazillion" is a hyperbole.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/C...acsbr12-16.pdf

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...-ryan-lovelace

(Let's focus only on the circumcision, and not discuss here a different kettle of fish, namely the genocide of the First Nations.)
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  #963  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:43
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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You can't make it an all or nothing situation because it isn't one. I do understand that all or nothing is easier to grasp conceptually, but life is not alway about "easy".
Agree. Yet most of the people on this thread seem to be advocating for exactly that level of zealotry. Interesting too, because some I had considered pretty broad minded in their other posts. Guess everyone has their trigger points.
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  #964  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:47
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Of course not - as Faltrad points out - this is about the child's right to not having parts of their sexual organs removed without their consent. You seem to have no problem understanding that when it comes to the female , what is your problem with sexism ?
Did you say you are aware of the religious context of circumcision? It is stipulated that every male at 8 days old be circumcised, not females. This is THE convenant between Abraham's and God itself. It isn't an optional menu item. It IS the religion itself.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17

So you are saying it should be banned, even implying the religion itself should be banned?

I think people who believe in such logic also believe in flying ponies, because it is contradictory and doesn't make sense.

But seriously, none of you can be geniunely serious. But if you really believe you are serious, then I would prescribe therapy.
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  #965  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:52
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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But seriously, none of you can be geniunely serious. But if you really believe you are serious, then I would prescribe therapy.
Voted best argument of the thread. You win.
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  #966  
Old 12.07.2020, 19:25
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Re: Circumcision (not debating right or wrong)

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I am not asking to debate the ethics of it. I am not asking your opinion.

But we would like to have our son circumcised shortly after birth.
How about asking the opinion of your son - before you arrange to have bits of him cut off?

Now there's a thought a bet you didn't consider!

(not debating right or wrong because it's clear that it's wrong)
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  #967  
Old 12.07.2020, 19:29
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Re: Circumcision (not debating right or wrong)

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How about asking the opinion of your son - before you arrange to have bits of him cut off?

Now there's a thought a bet you didn't consider!

(not debating right or wrong because it's clear that it's wrong)
Nobody asked me. But I have no regrets. And I think its much more of an operation when they get older
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  #968  
Old 12.07.2020, 19:35
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

Info only, I don´t give a poop.
My take on this, and remember the slammer hammer is docked (for medical reasons) so I know what I am talking about and have the problems to prove it.
As for non medical reasons I don´t see a difference between female genital mutilation and male genital mutilation.

Both constitute child abuse, period!
If you want your kids dick done you need your head examined.
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  #969  
Old 12.07.2020, 19:40
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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Info only, I don´t give a poop.
My take on this, and remember the slammer hammer is docked (for medical reasons) so I know what I am talking about and have the problems to prove it.
As for non medical reasons I don´t see a difference between female genital mutilation and male genital mutilation.

Both constitute child abuse, period!
If you want your kids dick done you need your head examined.
There is a world of difference between female and male circumcision
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  #970  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:01
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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There is a world of difference between female and male circumcision
Really, do elaborate.
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  #971  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:02
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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Really, do elaborate.
Male circumcision is a “minor” intervention that might even confer health benefits, whereas FGM is a drastic intervention with no health benefits, and only causes harm.
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  #972  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:07
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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Male circumcision is a “minor” intervention that might even confer health benefits, whereas FGM is a drastic intervention with no health benefits, and only causes harm.
It is an unnecessary bodily modification on an infant who cannot yet consent.

So I don't care how major or minor it is nobody should have a part of his willy cut-off due to some stupid religious or cultural habit.
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  #973  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:09
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

The medical community agrees: both the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) claim the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks, citing evidence that circumcision lowers a man's risk for HIV, urinary-tract infections and penile cancer
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  #974  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:13
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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The medical community agrees: both the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) claim the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks, citing evidence that circumcision lowers a man's risk for HIV, urinary-tract infections and penile cancer
Yes, and the dick becomes less sensitive this besides potential complications of circumcision.
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  #975  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:16
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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Male circumcision is a “minor” intervention that might even confer health benefits, whereas FGM is a drastic intervention with no health benefits, and only causes harm.
It may be only a minor intervention for you but I remember it to this day.
Also remember the child did not give consent and (as EdwinNL says) to do it for religious or cultural reasons is plain wrong.
Also there is a sliding range of opinions concerning if there are more benefits from Circumcision or if it is harmful.
From my point of view it sucks and you must be American.

Quote:
Jacobs, Micah; Grady, Richard; Bolnick, David A. (2012). "Current Circumcision Trends and Guidelines". In Bolnick, David A.; Koyle, Martin; Yosha, Assaf (eds.). Surgical Guide to Circumcision. London: Springer. pp. 3–8. doi:10.1007/978-1-4471-2858-8_1. ISBN 978-1-4471-2857-1. Outside of strategic regions in sub-Saharan Africa, no call for routine circumcision has been made by any established medical organizations or governmental bodies. Positions on circumcision include "some medical benefit/parental choice" in the United States, "no medical benefit/parental choice" in Great Britain, and "no medical benefit/physical and psychological trauma/parental choice" in the Netherlands.
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  #976  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:45
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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How about asking the opinion of your son - before you arrange to have bits of him cut off?
They did. He said nothing. But isn't it the case that under law it's the consent of the parents that is required?

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As for non medical reasons I don´t see a difference between female genital mutilation and male genital mutilation.

Both constitute child abuse, period!
If you want your kids dick done you need your head examined.
Medically, male circumcision is far less risky and with far fewer serious long term problems than so-call female circumcision. Male circumcision as others have stated, may even have some benefits. FGM has none.

Philosophically the reasons behind male circumcision are quite different from those for FGM, which large concern controlling female sexuality.

When FGM is outlawed everywhere and is on the decline - that might be the time to get all worked up about MGM.

I think FGM is such an monstrous thing, that its conflation with male circumcision is distracting and dilutes its egregiousness. This conflation is almost, but not quite (different motivation), in character to "All Lives Matter". It might be true (well of course it is). But it isn't the point.
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  #977  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:49
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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They did. He said nothing. But isn't it the case that under law it's the consent of the parents that is required?


Medically, male circumcision is far less risky and with far fewer serious long term problems than so-call female circumcision. Male circumcision as others have stated, may even have some benefits. FGM has none.

Philosophically the reasons behind male circumcision are quite different from those for FGM, which large concern controlling female sexuality.

When FGM is outlawed everywhere and is on the decline - that might be the time to get all worked up about MGM.

I think FGM is such an monstrous thing, that its conflation with male circumcision is distracting and dilutes its egregiousness. This conflation is almost, but not quite (different motivation), in character to "All Lives Matter". It might be true (well of course it is). But it isn't the point.
So add to the list ALL beauty operations-bigger lips and bigger breasts etc etc etc. None of these are done for health reasons.
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  #978  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:58
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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So add to the list ALL beauty operations-bigger lips and bigger breasts etc etc etc. None of these are done for health reasons.
Might as well. Yes. Or giving a minor hormones to suppress puberty...
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  #979  
Old 12.07.2020, 20:58
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

So to all those who say there's no comparison between FGM and MGM, completely ignoring the different levels of severity, can we assume you're totally fine with the minor forms of FGM that are comparable to removal of the foreskin, say just a partial labiaectomy? Just to tidy things up, make it easier to clean, more aesthetically pleasing, you know, the usual reasons?

How can a parent can just go ahead and ignore that one basic instinct you have as an adult to protect your kid and not cause any unneeded pain and then go ahead and do something moronic like this because you like the way it looks or you have an insecure husband who had it done himself or some imaginary twat in the sky demands you remove parts of your child?
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  #980  
Old 12.07.2020, 21:03
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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So to all those who say there's no comparison between FGM and MGM, completely ignoring the different levels of severity, can we assume you're totally fine with the minor forms of FGM that are comparable to removal of the foreskin, say just a partial labiaectomy? Just to tidy things up, make it easier to clean, more aesthetically pleasing, you know, the usual reasons?

How can a parent can just go ahead and ignore that one basic instinct you have as an adult to protect your kid and not cause any unneeded pain and then go ahead and do something moronic like this because you like the way it looks or you have an insecure husband who had it done himself or some imaginary twat in the sky demands you remove parts of your child?
I guess if one does not like it one can find a donor transplant and have it sewn back on!
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