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-   -   Circumcision: right or wrong? (https://www.englishforum.ch/general-off-topic/16591-circumcision-right-wrong.html)

Mrs. Doolittle 12.07.2020 23:36

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Principia Discordia (Post 3198525)

Edit - And how damn hard is it really to find info on this without asking a bunch of strangers for help? Have you not heard of a pediatrician? Or GP? Did you just expect to waltz in here with what you fully know is a very controversial question and expect a hearty rendition of "god bless america" and a few phone numbers?

Many people post questions here to which answers could be found elsewhere. It is a forum, and looking for a recommendation is often what someone is looking for.

Sadly this turned into a debate, with users including yourself demonstrating a total lack of tolerance and respect for the beliefs of others.

Principia Discordia 12.07.2020 23:50

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 3198540)
You can ask for that but it will never happen.

Later. Not enough progress has been made and tackling such a deeply entrenched custom as circumcision - which might even have health benefits - and the merging of FGM with MGM is misogynistic and harmful to women. Very very very very few men will be harmed if the fight against MGM is delayed until FGM is all but stamped out. If you think it has been, you're living in lala land.

FGM is practised far too widely.Even in countries where it is illegal, there are ways, and the authorities for fear of being accused of racism, don't react.

NotSuisseMade cited studies that show that MGM actually improves male sexual experience. FGM never does. As a man, I care about that. I want women to like sex.

The argument that the snipping of the foreskin is just the same as FGM is completely stupid and harmful to women.


No one's making a blanket comparison between FGM and MGM. One is reprehensible, and one is less so. Two injustices can be fought simultaneously even if they aren't quite equal. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.


But where do you see the OPs citation regarding increased sexual pleasure? Her links suggest "no adverse effects" in relation to sensitivity, followed up by the contradictory claim that circumcised men last longer? The foreskin serves a purpose and is full of nerve endings, that's undeniable.



Secondly, it isn't a snip as you term it. I'm not sure if you're aware but circumcision results in a large, permanent scar around the entire shaft of the penis, a cut around the entire circumference of the penis is the origin of the name. An unimaginably painful procedure when done by a mohel without anesthesia, and certainly not something I would put my son through for the heck of it in a hospital setting either.

Urs Max 13.07.2020 00:10

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 3198502)
When FGM is outlawed everywhere and is on the decline - that might be the time to get all worked up about MGM.

But FGM is far less horrible than racism. There's no reason to tackle FGM before all racism has been eradicated.

That said, racism is far less horrible than the chasing and mutilation of human albinos on the African continent. Can't fight racism until that practice has been eradicated.

And so on, etc pp ad infinitum. If there's enough whataboutism such as yours, nothing gets done.

Urs Max 13.07.2020 00:45

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 3198523)
Nothing to do with adolescence, it's down to if you want a 100m sprinter or a marathon runner, horses for corses :D

Maybe your partners were/are just good actors :p

After entering the vagina, the (seemingly excessive amount of) skin of an unaltered penis enables it to move back and forth without creating significant friction on the vagina's mucus skin(word?). It's as if the (seemingly excessive amount of) penis skin creates an additional sheath (which also helps explain why penis length seems to not [much] increase the joy for the woman). That may perhaps be less of an issue with lots of lubricant, but if there's little ...
That effect may well affect the man, too, and increase the problems caused by the removal of the most sensitive parts.

This study The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment of the female partner says
Quote:

During prolonged intercourse with their circumcised partners, women were less likely to 'really get into it' and more likely to 'want to get it over with'. On the other hand, with their unaltered partners, the reverse was true, they were less likely to 'want to get it over with' and considerably more likely to 'really get into it.'

doropfiz 13.07.2020 01:03

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Sadly, NotSuisseMade will doubtless go ahead and have this procedure done to her son, irrespective of the medical and psychological arguments against it.


For others, who may well still be considering how best to choose for their son's well-being, or who may be engaging in the discourse with fathers and mothers who are contemplating having their sons' penises cut, I recommend this page:
http://www.circumstitions.com/regret.html
especially the second post there, by Rosemary Romberg,who describes the difference in the experiences of her three sons. See also her https://peacefulbeginningsrosemary.wordpress.com/
https://circumcisionthepainfuldilemma.wordpress.com/


Ryan McAllister, PhD's lecture is worth watching. He is a parent, a biophysicist, and Assistant Professor of Physics and Oncology at Georgetown University.
https://youtu.be/Ceht-3xu84I
At 27:15, in particular, he talks about the claims of the medical advantages of circumcision (prevention of urinary tract infections, penile cancer, and transmission of some sexually transmitted infections, including HIV), and errors in how some of the data were collected.
See also his www.notjustskin.org.

Interestingly, even on the website of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, it states that the American Academy of Pediatrics found that "the benefits are not great enough to recommend that all newborn boys be circumcised".

For first-person narratives of adult men on their feelings about their circumcision, see: https://youtu.be/j2H_QpOob4M

And I didn't open this one, but had I a baby boy, and were I considering circumcision, perhaps I would: http://www.circumstitions.com/Botched1.html, which states "The educational pages within contain close-up pictures of (mutilated) penises."

Jim2007 13.07.2020 04:27

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by omtatsat (Post 3198483)
The medical community agrees: both the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) claim the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks, citing evidence that circumcision lowers a man's risk for HIV, urinary-tract infections and penile cancer

I would not place much reliance of so called US research, in invariably turns out to be sponsored by some faction or other.

greenmount 13.07.2020 08:40

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. Doolittle (Post 3198547)
Many people post questions here to which answers could be found elsewhere. It is a forum, and looking for a recommendation is often what someone is looking for.

Sadly this turned into a debate, with users including yourself demonstrating a total lack of tolerance and respect for the beliefs of others.

Nah, I think PrincipiaDiscordia was annoyed by the arrogance of the "innocent" poster - "I'm American and proud and always proud" yada yada and I'm gonna perform circumcision on my son either way.

I agree with PD, this is a delicate subject one wouldn't ask for advice on forums, and as their first posts or something at that. :D

Smells troll(ish) to me, particularly if they read related threads they would have known how people react here and that in fact no-one will come up with much info.

Tom1234 13.07.2020 09:26

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. Doolittle (Post 3198547)

Sadly this turned into a debate, with users including yourself demonstrating a total lack of tolerance and respect for the beliefs of others.

I think belief should be a personal thing. If someone, for example, wants to be a Muslim in Switzerland then that's fine and they should not be persecuted for their views.
If, however, their aim is to turn Switzerland into a caliphate,obviously by force, then that is wrong.

If NotSuisseMade's husband's belief is that being circumcised makes you a better person then he of course can arrange to get the OP done on himself (it was probably forced on him as a child so that's a moot point).
If she herself wants her boobs chopped off, or enlarged then of course she can arrange to do that.

What this couple are doing is forcing their beliefs on a young child - by physical force.

doropfiz 13.07.2020 09:37

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3198567)
...how people react here and that in fact no-one will come up with much info.

Some posters here actually did come up with plain, dry info on whom she might contact to get her son's penis cut. After all, some people still believe it is a personal matter, and that the person to choose over yielding baby boy's body up to cutting is his parent.

For my part, I just can't sit by and say nothing, not when I've listened to and read about the pain to which too many boys have been subjected, in this way, and the suffering, regrets and anger of the wrongs done to too many men.

As I said, I don't think it very likely at all that the pleas and cautioning of those men and their advocates will reach NotSuisseMade's mind and heart to move her away from her decision, at least not in time to prevent her choice.

But perhaps someone else, reading this thread now or later, while still trying to make up their minds, might shift away from inflicting an unecessary wound on their baby, which is primarily if not entirely cosmetic rather than advantageously functional, and will manage to abstain from cutting off their baby's sensitive foreskin, and will leave his genitals intact, boding well for his physical and mental health and his experience of sexual pleasure. The foreskin is, after all, not a superfluous extra with no purppse, but an integral part of the penis, with the highest concentration of nerve endings on the penis.

Not that circumcised men cannot be physically healthy, mentally healthy and experience great sexual pleasure.

But how, how, how could anyone could feel at peace in their hearts, at the thought (and perhaps it needs some deep thought and concentrated visualisation) not only of wilfully inflicting that pain on someone they love (and brought into the world) but also of taking the risk of messing with those functionalities?
To me, that represents the antithesis of parental love and care.

https://youtu.be/MsW_AFJTDzU
Why Would Anybody Want to do That to a Child's Body? - Iris Fudge, a retired nurse

Full Circle 13.07.2020 09:45

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
The lack of tolerance and respect for other people's beliefs is appalling.

doropfiz 13.07.2020 09:49

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Circle (Post 3198588)
The lack of tolerance and respect for other people's beliefs is appalling.

I agree with Tom on this. People should be free to believe whatever they want. Especially as far as it doesn't harm anyone else. But they should allow their own children the same freedom, and the same lack of harm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3198579)
What this couple are doing is forcing their beliefs on a young child - by physical force.

Yes. And irreversibly.

In general, parents try to teach their children what they think is right, while knowing (though it may be painful to admit it at the time) that when the child is grown up, he/she will be free to choose whether to stay with those beliefs of the parents (whether about God, styles of clothing, haircuts, diet, taste of music, smoking, choice of career, of place of residence and of partner) or to choose a different path.

But removing a part of the child's body, giving the order for a part of his/her genitals to cut off, also removes the child's choice, forever.

Again, I don't think these posts will influence the person who asked for information about whom she could approach to do the cut. I think her mind is firmly made up, and she will do as she believes. However, I do hope, for someone who may yet find this thread while not yet having made up their minds, that they may reconsider.

greenmount 13.07.2020 09:52

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3198584)
For my part, I just can't sit by and say nothing, not when I've listened to and read about the pain to which too many boys have been subjected, in this way, and the suffering, regrets and anger of the wrongs done to too many men.

As I said, I don't think it very likely at all that the pleas and cautioning of those men and their advocates will reach NotSuisseMade's mind and heart to move her away from her decision, at least not in time to prevent her choice.

I doubt people change or change their minds after they've been told all their lives certain things but well, you never know.

Tom1234 13.07.2020 09:52

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Circle (Post 3198588)
The lack of tolerance and respect for other people's beliefs is appalling.

Is a belief personal, or something you inflict on others?

doropfiz 13.07.2020 09:59

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3198595)
I doubt people change or change their minds after they've been told all their lives certain things but well, you never know.

Oh, I think that people have an immense ability to change! Some do stay set in their ways, just following in the patterns they were taught, yes.

But most of us on EF are living proof that we can learn to do things a different way. For some, moving countries challenges us and after some years, we're sometimes amazed at how far we've come, having developed quite a lot further than only maintaining the perspectives we formerly held. For many this is one of the great advantages of travelling, at all.

Principia Discordia 13.07.2020 10:47

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Circle (Post 3198588)
The lack of tolerance and respect for other people's beliefs is appalling.

I find tolerance for child abuse and a complete lack of respect for the bodily integrity and choices of another human being pretty appalling too.

Tom1234 13.07.2020 10:56

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
I see ACE1 has moved this to off-topic where we are unable to thank peoples' posts or criticise the OPs in any way.

Why does a thread on circumcision get this special treatment? (that's something the mods need to answer).

If someone started a restaurant thread asking about, for example, Indian restaurants in Zurich and their locations and the mods deleted or moved any posts that said, perhaps "We went to The Taj Mahal in Bahnhofstrasse but the food was bloody awful and I wouldn't recommend going there", there would be an outcry.

Why do threads with a religious or cultural theme get special treatment?

Ace1: I would like a special anti-smoking thread where you are not allowed to post to argue your case for smoking? That would be just as unreasonable?

Or, is there something personal to you in all this?

curley 13.07.2020 10:58

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Ah, I see, title changed, posts moved. Well then:
Wrong when decided for someone else. So clearly no decision to be taken by parents. Nobody has a right to change someone's body and don't give me "parents know better" or "manche muss man zu seinem Glück zwingen".

Once an adult the choice is theirs. For their own body, that is!!

Guest 13.07.2020 11:14

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3198616)
Why does a thread on circumcision get this special treatment? (that's something the mods need to answer).

This subject has raised its head many times over the years, and as a general mod rule we try to keep related subjects in related threads. Clearly there's a difference between arguing the rights and wrongs of something versus providing relevant information about it, so all I did was follow normal processes and split/merge threads to allow the two divergent topics to both continue.

The fact that it's in OT is simply because it's not related to Switzerland, as defined in the general posting rules and guidelines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3198616)

Ace1: I would like a special anti-smoking thread where you are not allowed to post to argue your case for smoking? That would be just as unreasonable?

Very poor analogy. Is there really any reasonable question for information on tobacco that could be viewed as a separate discussion? I can't think of any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3198616)
Or, is there something personal to you in all this?

Personally I'm very much anti-circumcision, but managed to restrain myself from falling into that argument in the previous thread. On this topic I totally agree with your own viewpoint, and putting your posts and others in here is actually a way to allow the discussion to continue, rather than try to close it down.

olygirl 13.07.2020 11:20

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Here's an interesting link describing the pros and cons regarding circumcision. I personally wouldn't recommend circumcision unless the infant has had continuous infections in the foreskin area (which is not all that rare).

https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/circumcision.html

NotAllThere 13.07.2020 11:37

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3198551)
But FGM is far less horrible than racism. There's no reason to tackle FGM before all racism has been eradicated.

I'm comparing a great evil with a minor one. You are comparing two great evils.

I'm contending that the lesser one is so much less egregious than the greater, that it really can wait until the greater one has been largely eliminated. That does not mean that I contend that we line up all evils and deal with the worst first. I don't. That would be a series of false dichotomies.

Those opposed to male circumcision often claim that it's the same as FGM, when it manifestly isn't, in terms of harm done. I think it is a massively unhelpful claim that weakens the fight against FGM.

I'm opposed vehemently to the conflation of the male circumcision and FGM.


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