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  #1021  
Old 13.07.2020, 11:47
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I'm comparing a great evil with a minor one. You are comparing two great evils.

I'm contending that the lesser one is so much less egregious than the greater, that it really can wait until the greater one has been largely eliminated. That does not mean that I contend that we line up all evils and deal with the worst first. I don't. That would be a series of false dichotomies.

Those opposed to male circumcision often claim that it's the same as FGM, when it manifestly isn't, in terms of harm done. I think it is a massively unhelpful claim that weakens the fight against FGM.

I'm opposed vehemently to the conflation of the male circumcision and FGM.
I disagree.

It would be much easier to legislate in a way that does not handle the sexes differently and that does not allow any potential loopholes that might see courts strike down such legislation on the basis of discrimination.
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  #1022  
Old 13.07.2020, 12:01
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

A pediatric circumcision will set you back between USD 1500 and 2000. Seems like a nice little earner to me.

Getting a nose job at 16 and a boob job at 18 is another thing that you will find much more often in the US than you do here in Europe.

Or if we move on to the veterinary field: it is perfectly customary in the US to have your cat declawed, which is a comfortable euphemism for what is the equivalent of cutting off a human's fingers at the first knuckle. Sometimes as part of a spay/neuter package, sometimes even as a standalone "surgery". Vets will tell owners that the benefits outweigh the risks and that it is completely without adverse effects. Meanwhile, declawing was made illegal in Switzerland in 1982 (based on my understanding of the legislation) and many Swiss people don't even know such a thing exists, indeed, they are horrified when they hear about it. Is it possible, that American vets simply don't want to give up the up to USD 1000 per hour that they charge for mutilating a cat's paws?

Same for ear cropping and tail docking, although that was only banned more recently, most people with a certain level of education find the image of a cropped dog disturbing. Again, this is pretty much standard in America, with owners often arguing that only they have a say on what happens to their pet. They also mention supposed health advantages but when I see a pit bull whose ears have practically been annihilated, I just want to cry.

So my general sense is that Americans are much more open to treating a living being like a customisable object and making a nice profit out of it too. That goes against my view.
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  #1023  
Old 13.07.2020, 12:47
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I'm comparing a great evil with a minor one. You are comparing two great evils.
One doesn't preclude the other, which is what you claim. Your refusal to tackle circimcision because it might take attention from FGM and calling that mysoginy doesn't make sense.
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  #1024  
Old 13.07.2020, 13:04
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I'm comparing a great evil with a minor one. You are comparing two great evils.
I agree with NAT, especially since one may have health benefits while the other is pure genital mutilation based on age-old superstitions and female inferiority.
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  #1025  
Old 13.07.2020, 13:20
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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This subject has raised its head many times over the years, and as a general mod rule we try to keep related subjects in related threads. Clearly there's a difference between arguing the rights and wrongs of something versus providing relevant information about it, so all I did was follow normal processes and split/merge threads to allow the two divergent topics to both continue.

The fact that it's in OT is simply because it's not related to Switzerland, as defined in the general posting rules and guidelines.
.
You deleted my thread asking for Prostitution services (info only) in Switzerland, citing that I was trolling.

I don't think that's it at all. I think you deleted it because keeping it would have showed the hypocrisy in your actions.

(By the way, for all those who sent me a PM with info pertaining to that thread, thank you for the information).

How about a thread asking for details on (legal) far-right groups in Switzerland (info only)? Would that be okay?

Having a separate thread really isn't the point. Doropfiz reckoned that people can change their views in light of new information, or information presented in a different way. It happens in the pub in discussions, at work, at home and on here.

If people really believe that it doesn't then what they are saying is that whenever anyone talks, it's basically a monologue because they like the sound of their own voice.

I listen to people on here and else where and check facts and sometimes change my views and actions because of this. Discourse is part of human interaction.

Rant over.
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  #1026  
Old 13.07.2020, 13:24
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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You deleted my thread asking for Prostitution services (info only) in Switzerland, citing that I was trolling.

I don't think that's it at all. I think you deleted it because keeping it would have showed the hypocrisy in your actions.

(By the way, for all those who sent me a PM with info pertaining to that thread, thank you for the information).

How about a thread asking for details on (legal) far-right groups in Switzerland (info only)? Would that be okay?

Having a separate thread really isn't the point. Doropfiz reckoned that people can change their views in light of new information, or information presented in a different way. It happens in the pub in discussions, at work, at home and on here.

If people really believe that it doesn't then what they are saying is that whenever anyone talks, it's basically a monologue because they like the sound of their own voice.

I listen to people on here and else where and check facts and sometimes change my views and actions because of this. Discourse is part of human interaction.

Rant over.
These are the times I'm grateful for not being a mod. I'd have removed the thread as well simply because it was being used to make a point and not for providing genuine information.

Tom, sweetie, get thee to a badi and enjoy the day.
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  #1027  
Old 13.07.2020, 13:30
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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These are the times I'm grateful for not being a mod. I'd have removed the thread as well simply because it was being used to make a point and not for providing genuine information.
That's 95% of the posts then.

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Tom, sweetie, get thee to a badi and enjoy the day.
That's this afternoon's "holiday in Switzerland" activity.
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  #1028  
Old 13.07.2020, 13:45
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

@Urs Max - you seem to have not quite understood.

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Yeah, well there is such a thing as lasting too long... When you breach the one hour mark every single time when wearing a condom, it all gets a bit tedious....
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Ah. Mr should get a vasectomy.
The point was that if it's taking an hour to come to completion with a condom, then having a vasectomy would remove one reason for wearing one.
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  #1029  
Old 13.07.2020, 14:30
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I like to view Circumcision as something not natural but at the same time if medically needed, one musnt shy from it.
I had a medical condition "phimosis" which warranted it. I got under the knife at the age of 29. Boy was it painful. From a wonderful doctor in Zurich.
I imagine the pain a toddler would go through when he has no clue what happens.
Circumcision is like religion... unnatural but harmless if well thought out
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  #1030  
Old 13.07.2020, 14:36
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I like to view Circumcision as something not natural but at the same time if medically needed, one musnt shy from it.
I had a medical condition "phimosis" which warranted it. I got under the knife at the age of 29. Boy was it painful. From a wonderful doctor in Zurich.
I imagine the pain a toddler would go through when he has no clue what happens.
Circumcision is like religion... unnatural but harmless if well thought out
I also know somebody who's done it later in life for medical reasons, apparently it was hell on earth. Too bad there aren't "thanks" in Off Topic area.
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  #1031  
Old 13.07.2020, 14:56
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

I wonder, whether you could sue your parents for doing this, once you're grown up?
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  #1032  
Old 13.07.2020, 14:58
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I wonder, whether you could sue your parents for doing this, once you're grown up?
I bet. But I don't know anyone who would, to be honest. If it wasn't done by a medical authority with a fat legal support, maybe.
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  #1033  
Old 13.07.2020, 15:05
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I also know somebody who's done it later in life for medical reasons, apparently it was hell on earth. Too bad there aren't "thanks" in Off Topic area.

That was my first hand experience too, at the age of 12 or 13, for a medical reason.
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  #1034  
Old 13.07.2020, 15:10
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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That was my first hand experience too, at the age of 12 or 13, for a medical reason.
Was it hell on earth?
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  #1035  
Old 13.07.2020, 15:13
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Was it hell on earth?

Let's say that I was not exactly looking forward to go to the toilet for 1 or 2 weeks.
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  #1036  
Old 13.07.2020, 15:15
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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Let's say that I was not exactly looking forward to go to the toilet for 1 or 2 weeks.
I can imagine. Sorry about your pain.
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  #1037  
Old 14.07.2020, 00:56
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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I wonder, whether you could sue your parents for doing this, once you're grown up?
Not a chance.

Our sexist laws don't protect boys from GM. So for males there's only "Körperverletzung", and prosecutability of that lapses after ten years. Beyond that, the second hurdle is that it's accepted medical practice even without medical reasons. Which leads to the 3rd, intent to harm, which is probably absent (and even if it isn't, you'd have to prove it's present).
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  #1038  
Old 14.07.2020, 08:03
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

The only reason this continues to happen as a tradition is the fragility of the male ego, of course there are exceptions that require medical attention. Teach awareness, care and hygiene, and then if there' a problem maybe circumcision is a medically required outcome

If a child has had his foreskin forcibly removed and mutilated it is likely that his father has too. The way we deal with and excuse this kind of trauma is to perpetuate it.

'My mutilated penis can be validated if I do the same to my son' - most forms of abuse are integrated and perpetuated this way. 'I was beaten as a child, if I beat my children then it validates the way that I was raised'

If you don't continue the 'tradition' and your son one day asks why his daddy's penis is different and flayed, the father will likely end up questioning his own penis, which men forever doing in some way or another, and end up dealing with it therapy. So it is easier to mindlessly perpetuate a tradition under the guise of 'medically safer' than it is to face one's own trauma.

If you have been circumcised through tradition, and you don't circumcise your own son, you are likely enlightened and have dealt with your own loss, recognizing that it is not your penis in the first place and therefore have no jurisdicktion over it.

There is no other reason to remove a foreskin. If a medical situation arises then deal with it, hopefully with the full and conscious consent of the owner of the penis in question.

I can't assume child my will get appendicitis at some point, and so elect to have their appendix removed at birth?

I think there is a deep-seated insecurity embedded in this practice. It is a male ceremonial branding act.

As for all of the mothers out there who support this, you're not thinking with your own brain, you're doing what you've been told must happen, and since you don't own a penis and have no penile proprioception, you find a way to comply and protect the mutilated ego of the diminished man.

Rule #1 - If it's not your penis, f**k off and leave it alone.
Rule #2 - If you don't own a penis, please refer to Rule #1
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  #1039  
Old 14.07.2020, 08:12
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Re: Circumcision in Switzerland [info ONLY please]

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Oh, I think that people have an immense ability to change! Some do stay set in their ways, just following in the patterns they were taught, yes.

But most of us on EF are living proof that we can learn to do things a different way. For some, moving countries challenges us and after some years, we're sometimes amazed at how far we've come, having developed quite a lot further than only maintaining the perspectives we formerly held. For many this is one of the great advantages of travelling, at all.
Lots of very conservative folks around, doropfiz. And these practices are seen as part of the identity for some, whether other people agree or not. Maybe I'm not just as optimistic as you.
I (for one) have decided long ago that if something doesn't affect me directly I just let it slide...better for my well being, better to not waste time on controversies and with people who can't be convinced/moved whatevs. Each to their own. If I was the mom of a boy whom the father thought it's absolutely necessary to circumcise, I would have fought tooth and nails (and legally if necessary) and there's no way he had his way.....otherwise - each to their own.
I think it's the state's/health authorities etc job to regulate these things, give recommendations, impose sanctions when or if necessary.

Last edited by greenmount; 14.07.2020 at 08:38.
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  #1040  
Old 14.07.2020, 12:50
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Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?

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You deleted my thread asking for Prostitution services (info only) in Switzerland, citing that I was trolling.

I don't think that's it at all. I think you deleted it because keeping it would have showed the hypocrisy in your actions.

(By the way, for all those who sent me a PM with info pertaining to that thread, thank you for the information).

How about a thread asking for details on (legal) far-right groups in Switzerland (info only)? Would that be okay?
I'm not sure I follow you.

We've had plenty of threads on Brexit (to pick an example) and typically discussions get heated and go on seemingly forever.

But some of us may have legitimate questions we want to know answers to. Such as, what rights do we have? Do we need to take any actions. It would be legitimate to discuss those factually in a separate thread where those questions don't get drowned out by everybody jumping on their soapbox and stating their personal opinions about Boris or whatever.

Or another example, some people keep on asking about the situation with Billag / Serafe. If you get a letter or a bill, do you need to pay, or are there any loopholes for getting out? Factual questions that have factual answers. And ideally those questions should be kept separate from the broader discussion on whether or not it is OK to make everybody pay for something of questionable quality that they have no intention of actually watching.
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