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-   -   Circumcision: right or wrong? (https://www.englishforum.ch/general-off-topic/16591-circumcision-right-wrong.html)

Guest 03.04.2009 21:23

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 432789)
It is not only men that regret being circumsized...

mothering debate

Excellent post. Excruciating reading, though.

Guest 03.04.2009 21:34

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Actually to pursue the "mothering" side of it - since having my son this aspect has always puzzled me. My son was jaundiced when he was born and had to undergo a daily Guthrie test where they prick the bottom of the heel for a bit of blood.

Since the birth I had turned into an angry bear of a mother and had to send my husband along with my son for the tests because I was in danger of knocking seven shades of poo out of the lovely lamb of a nurse doing the test. I have to add that I know the test was perfectly necessary and the nurse did the job fabulously but it was the act of "hurting" my son which flicked a switch inside me.

I couldn't imagine even contemplating allowing anyone to lop a bit off him unless it was injured, diseased or a life or death situation (well, not without coming back for the doctor responsible armed with an AK47, anyway :D).

Canadian_dude 03.04.2009 21:48

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drsmithy (Post 432845)
The two procedures are typically very different in terms of scope, intent and outcome. It's not at all surprising (and quite justifiable) that they are perceived differently.

Not true. Some FGM only removes the skin over the clitoris.

Tom1234 03.04.2009 22:15

Re: Circumcision: Right or Wrong II
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 432833)
Photo is from a totally unbiased source, is it? No. Is there a pro-circumcision website that has other photos? Maybe this was placed deliberately because it was the worst that could be found. Perhaps 10 seconds later, baby was happily in mums arms have a good feed.

Please note - I'm not in favour of circumcision. But I've a fascination with the objective portrayal of facts.

And circumcising a baby because of religious beliefs is hardly objective either is it?

It's, to put it bluntly, all in the mind which seems pretty subjective to me but you don't mention this in your post regarding your fascination with objectivity....:confused:

Nathu 03.04.2009 22:28

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leylak (Post 432857)
Finally, I figured that should my child be unhappy with our decision, it would come at a time when he could go get a new foreskin at the doctors, I mean, they can make brand new parts for transgendered persons, why not new foreskin?

Is this irony or does it reflect the nature of your "medical" findings before making the decision? :msncrazy:


Edit: And to add something constructive: I've read some pages of the thread from the Mothering forum and found it interesting. There are more controversial topics over there too, like vaccinations.

Tom1234 04.04.2009 00:04

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leylak (Post 432857)
You got me. I genuinely hate groaning but I hate seeing well-meaning parents being bullied even more. The premise is that the anti-circ crowd cares more about a child than her own parents and I think that premise is faulty. For people who have already decided to do it, it's a genuine concern to find out how to go about it in a foreign country and it's irritating to see them subjected to the same boo hisses you find on every single darn parenting board

I obviously can't speak for anyone else but personally I am not in a crowd as you so suggest.

You're going to get criticised with a post like that of the OP on any public forum.

I suggest the OP asks at the hospital where the child will be born, or for a home birth, the midwife or doctor.
Why didn't anyone else ask that? :confused:

This is the way I look at it:

If I had put a new post on EF stating, for example:

"I wish to purchase a cane in the Geneva area for the purpose of beating my child as a punishment when he won't behave.
I don't want to start a debate, nor do I expect any comments from people not agreeing with my views on child punishment, I just want to know where to purchase a cane."

Do you really think the only replies I would get would be those from people giving me the addresses of cane purveyors?


What's the difference?

I bet the big difference is that one could possibly involve the "R" word.

Macchiato 04.04.2009 10:59

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadian_dude (Post 432672)
OP. Would you circumcize you daughter? No? Why would you do that to your son? What would you say if your parents had YOU circumcised when you were a baby?

T.

These 2 things are totally different issues!:eek: In girls is killing sexual joy, while in boys not at all! Do you wanna see the proof?!:D

Macchiato 04.04.2009 11:03

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drsmithy (Post 432842)
In Africa. On should not underestimate the environmental issues involved, particularly with regards to things like relative rates of condom usage.

It's quite arguable whether the same dramatic difference would be seen in, say, Western Europe.

Un recomm. is not just based on africa: http://data.unaids.org/pub/Report/20...dations_en.pdf

Of course it doesn't replace condom usage!

Nathu 04.04.2009 12:41

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 432971)
These 2 things are totally different issues!:eek: In girls is killing sexual joy, while in boys not at all! Do you wanna see the proof?!:D

Do you have any before/after experience to back this up?

Link taken from the Mothering forum:

http://www.healthmad.com/Men's-Healt...n-Women.541911

saharanz 04.04.2009 13:21

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 432971)
These 2 things are totally different issues!:eek: In girls is killing sexual joy, while in boys not at all! Do you wanna see the proof?!:D

So why are there so many websites around with men taking months/years trying to grow their foreskins back (incl.DIY methods, so the're not all trying to sell fancy products) and saying they can't believe how much better it is?

eg: here

(only looked for a minute out of curosity and found heaps)

saharanz 04.04.2009 13:42

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leylak (Post 432867)
Finally, I figured that should my child be unhappy with our decision, it would come at a time when he could go get a new foreskin at the doctors, I mean, they can make brand new parts for transgendered persons, why not new foreskin?


Can't find the original comment anymore but here is some info about surgical restoration.

04.04.2009 13:48

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Diamant (Post 432596)
if you have decided what you want to do with your son, that's your choice

I know there are different reasons put forward by the pro camp but this, surely, can't be a valid one.

Guest 04.04.2009 15:29

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
"if you have decided what you want to do with your son, that's your choice"

Yeah, they use that argument in the countries where they cut girls. In fact they use almost all the exact same reasons to justify it that some people use to justify cutting boys. There are intelligent, educated, articulate women who will passionately defend it, and as well as using the same reasons that are used to defend male circumcision in the US, they will also point to male circumcision itself, as well as labiaplasty and breast operations, as evidence of western hypocrisy regarding female circumcision.

Are you aware that the USA also used to practise female circumcision? Fortunately, it never caught on the same way as male circumcision, but there are middle-aged white US American women walking round today with no external clitoris because it was removed. Some of them don't even realise what has been done to them. There are frequent references to the practice in medical literature up until the late 1950's. Most of them point out the similarity with male circumcision, and suggest that it should be performed for the same reasons. Blue Cross/Blue Shield had a code for clitoridectomy till 1977.

One victim wrote a book about it:
Robinett, Patricia (2006). "The rape of innocence: One woman's story of female genital mutilation in the USA."

Nowadays, it's illegal even to make an incision on a girl's genitals though, even if no tissue is removed. Why don't boys get the same protection?

If people are serious about stopping female circumcision, they also have to be against male circumcision. Even if you see a fundamental difference, the people that cut girls don't (and they get furious if you call it "mutilation"). The sooner boys are protected from genital mutilation in the west, the sooner those peoples that practice fgm will interpret western objections as something more than blindly hypocritical cultural imperialism.

Macchiato 04.04.2009 19:10

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by saharanz (Post 433002)
So why are there so many websites around with men taking months/years trying to grow their foreskins back (incl.DIY methods, so the're not all trying to sell fancy products) and saying they can't believe how much better it is?

eg: here

(only looked for a minute out of curosity and found heaps)

You can find website on everything these days! from enlarging nose to nails, to arse,....

Macchiato 04.04.2009 19:12

Re: Circumcision: Right or Wrong II
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Max (Post 432760)

I'm against mutilating anyone. Let them decide themselves; kids aren't possessions. But that's just an opinion.

It's much easier to do in early age not in adulthood! like naming the kid!

saharanz 04.04.2009 19:40

Re: Circumcision for newborn son
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 433084)
You can find website on everything these days! from enlarging nose to nails, to arse,....

How many of those are for people trying to enlarge their nose/nails/arse/any body part because their parents thought it was a good idea to chop it off when they were a baby?

Guest 04.04.2009 19:58

Re: Circumcision: Right or Wrong II
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 433087)
It's much easier to do in early age not in adulthood! like naming the kid!

Actually, it's safer and less painful to do it later, and the results are cosmetically better. Most countries that circumcise boys do it between the ages of about 7-20, and find the notion of doing it to a newborn strange.

Only about 1% of UK males left intact ever get circumcised anyway, so it's not like it needs to be done at all, certainly not before the person whose body it is gets to decide.

If my son wants to be circumcised when he's 18 (16 if he knows what he's doing), I'll gladly pay for it and help him find a good surgeon. Until then though, I don't think I have the right to have part of his penis cut off. His body - his decision.

Uncle Max 05.04.2009 15:57

Re: Circumcision: Right or Wrong II
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 433087)
It's much easier to do in early age not in adulthood! like naming the kid!

Right! It's so much easier to force a permanent physical imposition when they can't say 'No' :rolleyes:

It is wrong without consent.

Canadian_dude 06.04.2009 14:39

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Nobody would suggest removing a person's eyelids? Well, foreskin is a d**ks eyelid. If nature put it there who the hell do you think you are deciding you know better? (or your rabbi or some other 50 year old virgin in a funny hat).

Guest 06.04.2009 14:41

Re: Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadian_dude (Post 433761)
Nobody would suggest removing a person's eyelids? Well, foreskin is a d**ks eyelid. If nature put it there who the hell do you think you are deciding you know better? (or your rabbi or some other 50 year old virgin in a funny hat).


Well put, CDude. :D


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