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-   -   Circumcision: right or wrong? (https://www.englishforum.ch/general-off-topic/16591-circumcision-right-wrong.html)

ml66uk 24.12.2007 21:59

Circumcision: right or wrong?
 
I don't think circumcision without a medical indication is ever advisable,
but if you're going to have it done, then straight after birth is the worst
possible time.

a) you have to separate the foreskin from the glans (think of
removing your thumbnails only more painful). This also results in
adhesions, skin tags and skin bridges. If you wait a few years,
then the foreskin separates naturally.
b) it's smaller so more chance of a seriously botched job. It's very very
rare, but baby boys do occasionally die and suffer amputation because of
circumcision. (google "David Reimer" and read about his/her story if you
don't know what I'm talking about).
c) general anaesthetic is more dangerous for a newborn, so is never
used for circumcision which means it hurts more. Watch a video of
an operation if you don't know how much it hurts.
They scream their little heads off. Just because babies don't remember, it
doesn't mean it hasn't affected them. They have more problems
breastfeeding, and also show more reaction to injections years later.
d) newborns don't have much of an immune system, so they can die of
things that are harmless to adults or older children. A baby died
after circumcision in New York recently of the coldsore virus for
instance, and another got brain damage. Babies are more vulnerable
generally - a baby died 15 minutes after being circumcised in
London, UK about a year ago of apparent heart failure.
e) a newborn can't tell you if he actually wants to have the most
sensitive part of his penis removed or not. It's HIS body after all.

Medical reasons to be circumcised are very rare btw, but almost unheard
of in boys under ten.

If my son wants to be circumcised when he's 18, I'll pay for it, and help
him find the best surgeon in town, but until then, I'd rather leave him the
way he is.

ElJeFe 24.12.2007 22:12

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
What's the big deal? Circumcision is very common in the US, and being American I, like millions of others, "shed my skin" right after birth and suffered no ill effects. I do not know if it is still common practice in the US, and I think in Europe it is rarely done. There are pro's and con's to most medical procedures, one of the con's of not circumcising is when the foreskin is too tight, resulting in a painful erection, circumcision is the only cure in this case. People have died during the most simple, common, and routine of operations, so citing a few examples where the operation was botched is not representative of the risks as a whole.

ml66uk 24.12.2007 23:31

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
The big deal is that the bit that gets cut off is actually the most sensitive part of the penis. It's not just there to protect the glans. I know that being circed doesn't stop men from having great sex lives, but I think it should be their choice. Very few intact men (in Europe or the USA) choose to be circumcised, and some of the ones that do regret it.

The circumcision rate in the US is about 56%, but on the way down, partly due to demographics. It used to be about 90%. It still is around 90% in the mid-west, but only around 30% in California, and not much higher on the east coast. Australia's circ rate has dropped from over 90% in 1950 to 12.5% now, and the Australian Medical Association is talking about banning non-religious circumcision, unless there's a specific medical reason. (even though most of their doctors are either circed themselves, or married to circumcised men)

Phimosis (a tight foreskin) can almost always be treated without circumcision, but even if it needs to be done, it's still better to have it done later than earlier. Only about one in 160 males in the UK need to be circed for medical reasons, so if 160 babies are circumcised, then one might have needed it anyway later on, but that still leaves 159 who had it done unnecessarily.

I can't stop you from having your son circumcised, but I really think you should give him the choice when he's older, and I think doing it right after birth is the worst time to do it. I just can't see a downside to waiting.

You might want to look at a video of the operation first.

I think some mohelim will circumcise gentiles btw, but personally, I'd prefer a paediatrician to do it (some mohelim are both). The males in the UK royal family used to be circumcised by a mohel. Prince Charles and his brothers were circumcised, but Princes William and Harry are not.

vishi 25.12.2007 00:15

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ElJeFe (Post 149310)
What's the big deal? Circumcision is very common in the US, and being American I, like millions of others, "shed my skin" right after birth and suffered no ill effects. I do not know if it is still common practice in the US, and I think in Europe it is rarely done. There are pro's and con's to most medical procedures, one of the con's of not circumcising is when the foreskin is too tight, resulting in a painful erection, circumcision is the only cure in this case. People have died during the most simple, common, and routine of operations, so citing a few examples where the operation was botched is not representative of the risks as a whole.

Hello, Your signature says you are very concerned about climate crisis which takes about a few hundred years to take effect even if we all believe in human involvement in it, but want to put a kid to circumcision :)

It does affect a great deal, although not life threatening when you do it on child birth.

Sandgrounder 25.12.2007 08:09

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wheels (Post 149273)
My wife and I are expecting a son in a few months and, after having considered the options, we would like to have him circumcised. I know it is quite common to do in the US soon after birth, but not very common here. Obviously, we will talk with the pediatrician about it, but I was wondering if anyone who has gone through this experience in Switzerland has some good advice. Also, specific recommendations for the Lausanne area (such as doctors) would be appreciated. I should note that neither of us is Jewish, so having it performed by a rabbi is not a possibility.
Thanks!

Ask yourself this: If you were expecting a daughter would you want her to go through the same genital mutilation? You are expecting a perfect, healthy, beautiful baby boy.

Why do you want to change what Mother Nature made so perfect? :confused:

When our beautiful son was born we were so overjoyed at how perfect he was we couldn't have considered for one minute changing that by cutting bits off him. Obviously, if there had been a serious medical reason for changing any part of him we would have agreed straight away but, seeing your reasons for circumcision are not religious, rather cultural, I would advise you to wait until you see your newborn son before making your mind up.

ElJeFe 25.12.2007 12:13

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vishi (Post 149314)
Hello, Your signature says you are very concerned about climate crisis which takes about a few hundred years to take effect even if we all believe in human involvement in it, but want to put a kid to circumcision :)

Words fail me...

rhythmical remedy 25.12.2007 12:24

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Circumsicion should be banned unless for medical reasons. No ifs and buts for religious reasons either. If your god wanted the kid to be without foreskin then he would have created the kid without one. The ignorance and dumbness of humans constantly amazes me.

Smitty 25.12.2007 12:39

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmical remedy (Post 149335)
If your god wanted the kid to be without foreskin then he would have created the kid without one.


I don't disagree with your overall sentiment but... Appendix, tonsils, wisdom teeth, etc...

Sandgrounder 25.12.2007 12:54

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 149337)
I don't disagree with your overall sentiment but... Appendix, tonsils, wisdom teeth, etc...

...all removed for medical reasons?

ml66uk 25.12.2007 13:45

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Interesting comparison. A lot more children will at some point in their lives need their appendix, tonsils, or wisdom teeth removed than will will ever need to be circumcised, but we don't remove them just in case.

ElJeFe 25.12.2007 14:00

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmical remedy (Post 149335)
Circumsicion should be banned unless for medical reasons. No ifs and buts for religious reasons either. If your god wanted the kid to be without foreskin then he would have created the kid without one. The ignorance and dumbness of humans constantly amazes me.

You seem to have "issues" with this topic (hence the continuous groaning).... I don't want to digress into what these issues might be, but I can guess.

rhythmical remedy 25.12.2007 14:31

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ElJeFe (Post 149345)
You seem to have "issues" with this topic (hence the continuous groaning).... I don't want to digress into what these issues might be, but I can guess.

Why not stick to medical facts instead of guess work about my supposed issues? I have groaned twice on this thread just like you have groaned twice so far. How do my two groans = continuous groaning :confused:

The truth is that there is absolutely NO reason to chop the foreskin of a kid let alone a new born baby. If ElJeFe you don't get it then that is fine by me but millions of Americans doing something does not automatically make it right.

Nathu 25.12.2007 14:49

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
I too don't think it is advisable to cut the foreskin for prevention. It's very easy to prevent phimosis and hygiene is still important after the cut. Your Swiss pediatrician probably will tell you that circumcision has minimal or no proven benefits.

But if you're still interested, Richard's price estimate seems about right.

Smitty 25.12.2007 15:27

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandgrounder (Post 149338)
...all removed for medical reasons?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ml66uk (Post 149343)
Interesting comparison. A lot more children will at some point in their lives need their appendix, tonsils, or wisdom teeth removed than will will ever need to be circumcised, but we don't remove them just in case.

Was referring to the God comment that he made, rather than comparing circumcision to those things.

alkas 25.12.2007 17:46

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
I see that everyone here have opinion about circumcision, but have anyone here ever had any real life experience or contact with this subject? Do you know anyone that have done it or had good/bad experiences with this.
Reading these comments, to me it seems that those who have strongest opinion about this subject never had any experience/contact with this subject.

Sandgrounder 25.12.2007 21:02

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alkas (Post 149363)
I see that everyone here have opinion about circumcision, but have anyone here ever had any real life experience or contact with this subject? Do you know anyone that have done it or had good/bad experiences with this.
Reading these comments, to me it seems that those who have strongest opinion about this subject never had any experience/contact with this subject.

To make a comment like this you need to have had some contact/experience yourself to qualify it.

As a woman, obviously I have no personal experience but as the mother of a boy I would never let anyone do any unnecessary medical procedure on him.

alkas 25.12.2007 21:33

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
It should be up to everyone to decide if they want to do it or not, for whatever reasons, medical, religious, hygienic or anything else.
But when people start talking about traumatized boys and pain that is caused during this procedure is really talking about something that they don't have a clue about.
My son had this procedure (for medical reasons) and was back at home 3 hours after the operation and he went back to playing and doing what he wanted immediately after the arrival. Of course for couple of days we needed to be careful so that he did not hurt of hit himself while playing. But that is quite normal even for the much smaller procedures. There was probably some pain during first couple of days, but I think that more pain is caused by a bad tooth.

Of course most of the problems with circumcision occur when operation is done by unqualified or unexperienced doctors, or in some countries where it is done by self thought, non-medical persons.
When done in hospital and by experienced doctors risks are minimal.

rhythmical remedy 25.12.2007 22:43

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alkas (Post 149380)
It should be up to everyone to decide if they want to do it or not, for whatever reasons, medical, religious, hygienic or anything else.

Well the baby is not being given the chance to decide for itself is it?

grey 26.12.2007 02:09

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
I was born in Switzerland in '85 and was not circumcised at birth. I grew up in America and got some flak from my buddies when they discovered my elephant trunk shaped penis while showering up after wrestling practice. Why were they looking anyway? I was worried that a girl would freak out if she saw it, but the girls I dated in high school never cared.

Back to the point. I realized I had phimosis when I was 13. Yep, couldn't pull it back. My old man took me to a urologist for an evaluation/consultation. I had three choices. A full circumcision, two 3/4cm lateral incisions (preputioplasty), or the quite humorous dorsal slit (super-incision) which will leave your penis looking as if it's got a turkey neck.

I opted for the mild alternative - preputioplasty. The procedure went quite well, though the anesthetic injections were pretty painful. I was conscious and watched the doctor make the lateral incisions. After the operation I had my johnson wrapped in gauze for a month and couldn't play football my 7th grade year. I have two scars but they are minor and no one has ever noticed except for me. I'll never forget the feeling of my first erection that week following the surgery. :msnsick:

I was a little upset at the time at my dad for not having me circumcised at birth, but only because I was nervous/scared prior to the day of surgery. Now of course it's no big deal. I'm not sure what the statistics are on phimosis but I'm sure the chances are low.

Leave the skin on IMO. If there are complications later in your sons life, then worry about it.

dwilkinson 26.12.2007 11:50

Re: Circumcision in Switzerland
 
I dont understand why people think that they have a right to judge others believes or decisions. No one asked you wether you agree with circumcision or not. The family has made a decision and all they need is some advice. Why people keep getting involved in other businesses? I really dont like this forum anymore...All you get is unwanted opinions but not real advice!


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