Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > General off-topic  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 29.10.2006, 07:25
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 3,070
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
In short Mark yes you are an Atheist in both dictionary and non-dictionary term but some of your line of thinking kind of goes against the "spirit" of being an atheist You seem to be willing to help the cause of God/religion directly or indirectly. Regarding what I would class you as...my answer would be "friendly" or "weak" Atheist (absolutely no disrespect intended)
OK, so then you admit that I am an atheist, but a "weak one". Am I allowed to therefore call myself an atheist without insisting that others that hold different views are wrong, or that they have no right to such views? You qualify your remarks by saying that I go against the "spirit" of being an atheist. Who defines this "spirit"? I didn't see it written down in any dictionary. The simple fact here is that your views are not the same as mine, yet we both call ourselves atheists. I'm fine with that, but you don't seem to be?

Quote:
I agree in the right of people to believe whatever they want to believe but I am not going to defend their belief if I find their belief to be false and lacking any evidence.
Of course, I'm not going to defend their beliefs either. However there are two very separate issues here, which you don't seem to be able to separate.

The first issue is religious beliefs themselves. An atheist does not share these religious beliefs. Nobody would expect an atheist to defend a belief which he doesn't share.

The second issue is the right of people to hold a belief, whether it agrees with the athiest's view of the world or not. This is a VERY separate idea to the first one, and I maintain that it has nothing to do with atheism at all.

Now back to my own very personal view for a second. I defend the right to religious freedom, not because I somehow agree with the other religions, but because nothing yanks my chain more then one religion trying to impose on followers of another, discriminating against them, etc. It is this discrimination or intolerance that gets me going, not whether they believe in a god or not. I've had more than enough of that rubbish as a child, being told everyone else was going to hell, that Muslims and Catholics were somehow the enemy, even that the film "Ghostbusters" was the work of the devil.

Remember that a world where we are all atheists and effectively ban all religions would be one where everyone shares the "religion", if you will, of no religion. Maybe in 500 years we'll have a world like that, but I hope it will be one which has been imposed by choice, and not by "strong atheists".
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 29.10.2006, 07:56
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 3,070
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Sorry all, to get back on topic for a second (since whether there is a god, or the correct definition of an atheist aren't really the topics here)...

This topic started life as a question "Is religion the cause of all evil?". We've had some other angles to it and explored greed (money is linked to that as well I suppose), and even touched briefly on the motivations of Bin Laden.

I think if we were to abstract the argument to its logical conclusion we'd have to say that "DNA is the cause of all evil", or more specifically the propagation of DNA. Richard Dawkins mentioned that briefly in the video which Lou linked, but didn't really go into it.

Therefore if we look behind the motivation for greed we find that those who procure the most territory and wives propagate their own seed more effectively than others. Throughout history conquering armies have killed the women and children in order to ensure that their seed is propagated. Same story in the animal kingdom - a lion will try to kill the cubs fathered by another lion, intending to supplant them with his own. In polygamous species the alpha male is the only male to propagate his DNA - all other males lose out. Therefore the alpha male has to be greedy - he has no choice.

But what about OBL? Is he motivated by greed? The need to propagate his DNA? Religion? Well his father was certainly very good at sowing his wild oats, but I don't think that's it. OBL is motivated by an ideology which has little to do with his religion. He's bent his ideology to fit his cause, and bent his religion to fit his ideology. What's driving OBL? Revenge. What I'm saying is that OBL doesn't fit into our argument here, but I don't think it somehow disproves it or makes it any less valid.

So if we believe that DNA is the root of evil then to say that religion is the root of all evil we would have to find a link between these two issues.

There are some religions (in their strict forms) which forbid marrying outside of their small group. This is quite limiting for the religion - it means it won't spread very far. The religions of the world which seem to be the most successful are those that convert followers of other religions and people of other races. Hard to find a "DNA" motivation there. We do have the whole "no condom" issue from the Catholic church - perhaps designed to make their followers multiply faster than other groups and thereby increase the power of the church?

Now we get back to the virus thing. In the case of the larger religions, the real aim of the religion is to serve itself. It's an idea that attempts to conquer and displace other ideas. Why? Because ideas or "memes" as they are sometimes called, also have a desire to "live", just like DNA. The more successful religions have found ways to spread more effectively and protect their followers. They've sometimes helped their followers procure more resources (Holy wars for example), and they sometimes introduce systems of order designed for the long term survival of the group. The popular religions of today have stood the test of time and evolved - just as our own DNA has.

It's a curious relationship, but I think in the end my own answer would have to be "yes... and no...."
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 29.10.2006, 07:57
evilshell's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, formerly Basel
Posts: 3,361
Groaned at 96 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 3,074 Times in 1,338 Posts
evilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
A very bad example you gave. If you follow what some of those holy books say about followers of other religions or idolators then you might change the above example . Most religions are exclusive and not inclusive clubs. If they were inclusive then half the world problems would be solved. What you are saying there is equvalent of a TRUE muslim or christian arguing in favour of atheism. If they do then they are not following their holy books and as such are nto really muslim or christian.
It is one thing to endorse another religion - it is a completely different thing to say they have the right to practice it. People of religious belief A may feel that people from religious belief B are idiots for believing in B - but as long as they (the A group) don't have to believe it, well, let the other person go to "hell" (or the version thereof). People are able to believe what they want to believe.

There are many, many interfaith groups out there who do preach religious tolerance and understanding.

Not all religious persons are so intolerant as to believe that their religion is the only way - to the exclusion and elimination of all others. That's extremism, and I think it falls out of the realm of this particular section of the discussion. (can an athiest say it is OK to practice other religions)
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 29.10.2006, 11:36
cathy20's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oerlikon, Zurich
Posts: 54
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts
cathy20 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
Hah you made me smile. You might need God to justiy your existence but I definitely don't. Let's for argument sake agree that "GOD" exists. Then this so called GOD has done absolutely nothing to contact me or tell me his "rules". Now if you say the Bible,Quran etc are his rules then those rules are very UNCLEAR and full of holes that science has exposed. So it looks like this GOD is absolutely clueless. Now on the other hand if you say that the books have been edited by humans and the original GOD rules were accurate then-

A) Why would you follow a book where you are not sure which parts are true and which parts are edited/false?

B) As the creator of this world shouldn't GOD resend the rule book because surely he can see that the rule book has been edited. How can he expect people to know the real rules if the people don't have access to it?

If we assume that the holy books are accurate and un-edited then in that case I will never worship or bow to such an egomaniac! I will glady choose HELL.
If you look at the history of Christianity, it would seem that in the beginning there were several factions of it. Each faction would have a set of books just like the Bible. The problem is, one version of Christianity won and made us believe that their books are the only one of its kind coming directly from heaven. The " Da Vinci Code" mentioned this of course but you can read more about it from other sources less popular. My point is, the version of Christianity that we know now is not necessarity the real one, only that it is the most vicious one. Having successfully annihilated all the competition.

I don't believe that God did indeed send a rule book. That's the problem with us, when we think of God we think of the God in the framework that the religions have been brainwashing us with for the last 2 thousand years.

I stopped believing in the God the religions are teaching a long time ago. But I maintain that there must be some power that allows us to exist. My points:

1) The probability that life on earth (or elsewhere) could exists is so remote. I read that there is "less than 1 chance in 10^282(million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe."
Of course, one could question the parameters of their calculation but even if one would calculate it for himself the number would still be large (probability of the existence of carbon, water in its liquid form, distance of earth from the sun, size of the sun, presence of the essential amino acids etc etc).
2) If one looks at the DNA structure and design, and think of the things that a DNA do...replication, transcription, translation, etc...it's so crazily intelligent I cannot think how it could occur by chance! Honestly, when scientist think they have solved something, another problem comes up. The mechanism is so complicated that I don't think we will ever fully understand it. Everyone is stuck to the "how, why and when" of it.
3) The cell and its processes, again so clever!
4) When we are hungry, we don't just simply eat. Our stomach sends signals to the brain that we are hungry then the brain send signals that we should salivate etc...

Life is so intelligent, so clever, and so practical that it could not have occurred by chance. The power (or force) who have thought, and designed life (and all the universe) must be reflective of it's creations (meaning intelligent, clever and practical as well). In my opinion then this power couldn't have bothered to send us a book to tell us not to eat meat on Fridays.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 29.10.2006, 11:50
BeastOfBodmin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 869
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 351 Times in 229 Posts
BeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
Sorry all, to get back on topic for a second (since whether there is a god, or the correct definition of an atheist aren't really the topics here)...

This topic started life as a question "Is religion the cause of all evil?". We've had some other angles to it and explored greed (money is linked to that as well I suppose), and even touched briefly on the motivations of Bin Laden.
Well done for trying to get this back on topic (or are you trying to sum up before closing the thread) ?

Quote:
I think if we were to abstract the argument to its logical conclusion we'd have to say that "DNA is the cause of all evil", or more specifically the propagation of DNA. Richard Dawkins mentioned that briefly in the video which Lou linked, but didn't really go into it.
It seems a bit of a leap to make from the above discussion to the statement "DNA is the cause of all evil".

Quote:
Therefore if we look behind the motivation for greed
Greed now? What about evil?

Quote:
we find that those who procure the most territory and wives propagate their own seed more effectively than others. Throughout history conquering armies have killed the women and children in order to ensure that their seed is propagated.
Surely kill the children and rape the women is a better strategy for one's own gene propagation? And at least if you don't kill the children, enslave them or something so that they can be useful but not breed?

Quote:
Same story in the animal kingdom - a lion will try to kill the cubs fathered by another lion, intending to supplant them with his own.
Male cubs actually. No sense in offing the females because he can mate with them later. No incest taboo to worry about.

Quote:
In polygamous species the alpha male is the only male to propagate his DNA - all other males lose out. Therefore the alpha male has to be greedy - he has no choice.
I agree with that part. But don't forget that, at least in some primate groups, there are clandestine couplings between non-alpha males and females in the same social group.

Quote:
So if we believe that DNA is the root of evil then to say that religion is the root of all evil we would have to find a link between these two issues.
And if we don't think so...

Quote:
It's a curious relationship, but I think in the end my own answer would have to be "yes... and no...."
Instead of meandering off into discussions about religion vs atheism and so on, I should have thought we should have tried to agree on a definition of evil in the first place. Then, armed with the definition, you know what you're looking for. We could then proceed on that basis.

This didn't happen. So I suppose almost everyone implicitly and probably unconsciously assumed that "evil" is something that only exists from a human point of view. And the discussion rarely mentioned anything that was not concerned with "doing unto others".

In other words, would it be fair to say that we're discussing the concept of "evil" from a human, moral viewpoint?

Does "evil" exist outside of moral frameworks? In the same way that the speed of light or rest mass of an electron exists? That is, as an objective fact?
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 29.10.2006, 12:17
BeastOfBodmin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 869
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 351 Times in 229 Posts
BeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
If you look at the history of Christianity, it would seem that in the beginning there were several factions of it.
What does that have to do with religion and evil?

Quote:
I don't believe that God did indeed send a rule book. I stopped believing in the God the religions are teaching a long time ago. But I maintain that there must be some power that allows us to exist.
The only way that statement makes any sense (to me) is if you posit a God that is not infinite or omnipresent or whatever. Or for some Calvinist-type reason decided to restrict itself in how it interacted with its Creation. Is that what you're saying?

Quote:
My points:

1) The probability that life on earth (or elsewhere) could exists is so remote. I read that there is "less than 1 chance in 10^282
[large number expansion deleted to save on storage]
exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe."
Not a problem in an infinite universe. In an infinite universe life has arisen an infinite number of times. IMO it's not as simple as that. The 10^282 number probably comes from a consideration of purely random processes. The world doesn't seem to conform to such simple analysis. "Selection rules" seem to operate on different scales, resulting in "emergent phenomena" of "self organisation".

Quote:
Of course, one could question the parameters of their calculation but even if one would calculate it for himself the number would still be large (probability of the existence of carbon, water in its liquid form, distance of earth from the sun, size of the sun, presence of the essential amino acids etc etc).
Hmm. At one level, the elements in the periodic table are inevitable. A property of things like the speed of light, relative strengths of the physical fundamental forces, ratio of electron and proton mass and so on. Which is an example of the action of a selection rule, I might add. Other selection rules might be discovered that serve to reduce the 10^282 number quite a lot. Which it would have to in order to accommodate a reasonable chance of life arising in a finite universe.

Quote:
Life is so intelligent, so clever, and so practical that it could not have occurred by chance. The power (or force) who have thought, and designed life (and all the universe) must be reflective of it's creations (meaning intelligent, clever and practical as well). In my opinion then this power couldn't have bothered to send us a book to tell us not to eat meat on Fridays.
I used to use the same argument to deny God, rather than just deny the organised religions. Interesting.

But what does this have to do with evil?

Last edited by BeastOfBodmin; 28.09.2007 at 21:47.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 29.10.2006, 12:22
mark's Avatar
The Architect
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zollikon, Switzerland
Posts: 3,070
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 418 Times in 115 Posts
mark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond reputemark has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
But what does this have to do with evil?
By insisting on a definition of evil we will never get anywhere. Bear in mind that these discussions are only supposed to be a place where everyone can express their various views - some well formulated and some not.

In other words, we aren't trying to construct any proofs of absolute truth or compute the meaning of life - we are just chewing the fat. Remember that this isn't a court room - people shouldn't be afraid to come forward with a new idea for fear of it being torn to shreds
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 29.10.2006, 12:31
cathy20's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oerlikon, Zurich
Posts: 54
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts
cathy20 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:

I used to use the same argument to deny God, rather than just deny the organised religions. Interesting.

But what does this have to do with evil?
I was trying to answer the questions posted to me that I quoted. I answered the evil part a while back.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 29.10.2006, 13:00
cathy20's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oerlikon, Zurich
Posts: 54
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts
cathy20 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
The world doesn't seem to conform to such simple analysis. "Selection rules" seem to operate on different scales, resulting in "emergent phenomena" of "self organisation".

Hmm. At one level, the elements in the periodic table are [in]inevitable[/i]. A property of things like the speed of light, relative strengths of the physical fundamental forces, ratio of electron and proton mass and so on. Which is an example of the action of a selection rule, I might add. Other selection rules might be discovered that serve to reduce the 10^282 number quite a lot. Which it would have to in order to accommodate a reasonable chance of life arising in a finite universe.
I guess this link http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/life.html could explain what you mean?
Funny that when scientists can't explain something they call it a "phenomena" and when religions can't explain something they would call it a "miracle"....
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 30.10.2006, 01:27
Mikey's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ex-Zurich now relieved
Posts: 650
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 473 Times in 245 Posts
Mikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Without getting too caught up in the semantics of what constitutes an evil act I would like to point out the simplist of rules that are drilled in to us as we grow up. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". For me, that is where religion should end. As an old boss of mine once said, the "Kiss" principle (Keep it simple stupid) solves most problems.

But religion just can't help itself. It keeps getting itself tied up in man made knots and throwing stones over the theological boundaries of other religions in order to win points.

Is religion the cause of all evil, I don't think so. But there are so many people in senior religious positions that endorse - what I believe to be - evil acts without a moments hesitation. A few have been mentioned, but the Catholics condemnation of the use of condoms given the current problem with Aids in Africa has to count as an evil act IMHO. But is that the fault of the religion or the jerks who come out with the policy?

And when the hell did someone start to draw up guidelines about what constitutes a good and bad atheist? At the bottom of that slippery slope will be yet another religion with several different factions with bibles that will be written by men in suits. I for one want no part in any organisation that tries to stifle my freedom of what I choose or choose not to believe in.

I think that Mark is justified in declaring himself an atheist and I think that Cathy has every right to believe in another power. I myself believe that I am an atheist because I hate all of the religious organisations and definitions. But, I would strongly defend anybodies right to practice whatever they believe in as long as they stick by the rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 30.10.2006, 04:01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 431
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
jamaicanRUM has made some interesting contributions
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
I think that Mark is justified in declaring himself an atheist and I think that Cathy has every right to believe in another power. I myself believe that I am an atheist because I hate all of the religious organisations and definitions. But, I would strongly defend anybodies right to practice whatever they believe in as long as they stick by the rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
I did not meant to come across as an Atheist elitist. Yes I fully agree that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe. My argument is that "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is not followed by religious folks when it comes to people of other faiths or faithless people (specially the one in power or the violent extremists). All I am saying is "I" as an Atheist will play no part in promotion of ANY religion.


Quote:
The second issue is the right of people to hold a belief, whether it agrees with the athiest's view of the world or not. This is a VERY separate idea to the first one, and I maintain that it has nothing to do with atheism at all.
I see your point.

Quote:
Now back to my own very personal view for a second. I defend the right to religious freedom, not because I somehow agree with the other religions, but because nothing yanks my chain more then one religion trying to impose on followers of another, discriminating against them, etc. It is this discrimination or intolerance that gets me going, not whether they believe in a god or not.
Well all I am trying to say is that most main stream religions promote intolerance. So let me take example of Islam. Now you might think that Islam is being discriminated against in the west by say Catholics. So you fight for the right of Islam to be not discriminated against by Catholics in the west. Which from your angle I can understand but how is that going to help the situation when Islam itself is intolerant as well? Do you understand what I am trying to say?
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 26.09.2007, 20:32
grumpygrapefruit's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zuriwest
Posts: 6,272
Groaned at 38 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 16,663 Times in 4,357 Posts
grumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

I didn't think this qualified for a new thread, and this existing one has a couple of mentions of the Catholic Churchs in Africas' stance on Condoms. Pretty shocking really and sad that a lot of people will believe him.

"The head of the Catholic Church in Mozambique has told the BBC he believes some European-made condoms are infected with HIV deliberately."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7014335.stm
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 26.09.2007, 20:43
ElJeFe's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Zürich
Posts: 496
Groaned at 22 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 431 Times in 233 Posts
ElJeFe has an excellent reputationElJeFe has an excellent reputationElJeFe has an excellent reputationElJeFe has an excellent reputation
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Nope, religion is not the cause of all evil. Greedy power-hungry people (OK OK mostly men) are the root of most evil. Religion is just a useful tool, with it they can manipulate emotions into actions. But this is a topic that we'll never hear the end of, everyone has their own $0.02, and this is mine.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12.12.2011, 20:46
desperate's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Deutschland
Posts: 272
Groaned at 6 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 155 Times in 101 Posts
desperate has annoyed a few people around heredesperate has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Without religion, people would surely find something else to kill, die, etc for
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12.12.2011, 21:07
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,228
Groaned at 43 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 5,216 Times in 2,020 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
View Post
Without religion, people would surely find something else to necropost from 2007
fix that for ya
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 12.12.2011, 21:18
F16 F16 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Spreitenbach
Posts: 194
Groaned at 76 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 181 Times in 90 Posts
F16 is considered unworthyF16 is considered unworthyF16 is considered unworthyF16 is considered unworthy
Re: Is religion the cause of all evil?

Quote:
View Post
If evil can exist without a religious context, then I disagree.

I should have thought that most religions have a definition of evil, as most religions concern themselves to some extent with a moral framework that, from the point of view of the believer, might constitute an "absolute" or objective position.

Does evil exist outside of moral frameworks? In the same way that the speed of light or rest mass of an electron exists? I'm not sure.
I believe this comment must have ended this discussion many posts ago...its a good one indeed
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mosques with or without Minaret? litespeed Swiss politics/news 1019 20.10.2009 18:21


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0