Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > General off-topic
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:15
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,033
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,989 Times in 10,888 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

oiseau (on it's own, without article in front) does sound like 'wazo'

and with the adjective 'bel' in front, it does also sound like 'wazo'

but with the article 'un' in front, the 'n' liaises with the 'oi' and the sound turns into 'un (n)oiseau' or 'un (n)oizo.



Get it, don't get it? That's fine by me. Words are pronounced and 'liaised' differently depending on the word before- et voilà

Forgot, the 'w' also works with the definite article 'l'oiseau' = l'wazo

Checked for fun with a few French and Swiss French teachers - and they all agree, with the definite article 'un' the liaison is done with the 'n' - so 'un oiseau' = 'un (n)oiseau. Leave you to it, as I really don't care- but since you wanted to make a song and dance about it, and since many here on EF are learning French- I felt it had to be said. Again, the originial joke published was with the sentence 'un bel oiseau' (un bel wazo) and extrapolating to
'un oiseau' = 'un wazo'- which just does not work. Had he used 'l'oiseau' it would have been fine. Mia, interesting link- I will check it out. But no, it is not correct- not in Neuchâtel, not in Paris and not even in Lausanne - toodlepip
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:17
RufusB's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: In my head. And UK. Ex-Basel.
Posts: 2,706
Groaned at 44 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 3,969 Times in 1,621 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
oiseau (on it's own, without article in front) does sound like 'wazo'

and with the adjective 'bel' in front, it does also sound like 'wazo'

but with the article 'un' in front, the 'n' liaises with the 'oi' and the sound turns into 'un (n)oiseau' or 'un (n)oizo.



Get it, don't get it? That's fine by me. Words are pronounced and 'liaised' differently depending on the word before- et voilà
Surely what you describe above is the French equivalent of a glottal stop? Maybe it is a pronunciation thing but I have to concur with the others when I say that from a purely phonetic point of view the additional n doesn't make sense.

It's like when southerners try unsuccessfully to replicate the almost silent "t" in the phrase "I'm going down (to the) town". Phonetically it's tempting to write "tut town" but that isn't correct. "T'town" is nearer but doesn't show the softness, or the "throwaway" quality of the t.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,033
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,989 Times in 10,888 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Just keep saying the list aloud, and you will hear and feel it

oiseau (w)
l'oiseau (w)
un bel oiseau (w)

un oiseau (n)
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:22
RufusB's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: In my head. And UK. Ex-Basel.
Posts: 2,706
Groaned at 44 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 3,969 Times in 1,621 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Just keep saying the list aloud, and you will hear and feel it

oiseau (w)
l'oiseau (w)
un bel oiseau (w)

un oiseau (n)
I understand. But when I say "un oiseau" I put a very small gap between the ns and that makes the wa sound instead of the oy sound.

Last edited by 22 yards; 07.02.2016 at 11:32. Reason: Fixed quote formatting
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:23
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy McModface
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,512
Groaned at 57 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 8,952 Times in 3,294 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Jokes are so much better when intensely analysed.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:35
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,969 Times in 5,329 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Jokes are so much better when intensely analysed.
What do you mean by that? Could you explain, please?
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,165
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Just keep saying the list aloud, and you will hear and feel it

oiseau (w)
l'oiseau (w)
un bel oiseau (w)

un oiseau (n)
I don't understand why you make a different here, I pronounce:

wazo
lwazo
œ̃belwazo
œ̃nwazo
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,033
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,989 Times in 10,888 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

LOL Mirfield- I so agree - as sais, it was not me who insisted on making a song and dance about it... it was actually funny that an incorrect example was given...

Faltrad, your examples make it clear that un one with 'un' is different and includes the 'n' liaison. œ̃nwazo

Listened to all the examples on your link Mia- and they all say 'un 'n' oiseau, and not un wazo.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:50
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,969 Times in 5,329 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Just keep saying the list aloud, and you will hear and feel it

oiseau (w)
l'oiseau (w)
un bel oiseau (w)

un oiseau (n)
Aaaaggghhhh. This is my final attempt. Then you can have this derailed thread all to yourself, Odile.

EVERYBODY agrees that there is a liaison (using the 'n' sound) between the indefinite article and the noun in this particular case. The phenomenon is very well known. The issue is that this 'n' sound is simply added to the 'wa' sound with which "oiseau" starts. So instead of 'un / wazo', you say (and hear) 'unnwazo'. The 'wa' is still there; you don't say 'unnuhzo' (spelt phonetically), do you? In French, 'oi' is pronounced 'wa' (or 'wah'): oiseau, joie, oie... Putting a liaised 'un' in front of it doesn't change the 'wa' sound!

Speaking of 'oi' = 'wa'...
Quote:
View Post
The most egregious change has to be the removal of the "i" in onion. "Ognon"!? WTH? That's just wrong. I'm outraged.
I'm outraged too, but not many people say 'wahnyon' any more.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 07.02.2016, 11:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,165
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Faltrad, your examples make it clear that un one with 'un' is different and includes the 'n' liaison. œ̃nwazo
OK, we all agree. Love is everywhere...
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,165
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
not many people say 'wahnyon' any more.
Oignon is an old spelling for /onjõ/ pronounced with a /o-/ for centuries in most France but one area around Dauphiné/Lyon. The -ign- stood for /nj/ and nothing else, oignon was the only word it didn't get corrected in the 19th century. I'll be saying /wanjõ/ for the rest of my life, I don't care what académie thinks. Nobody does.
The spelling reform dates from 1990 and is only being implemented in school books next year and civil servants are free to choose the old or the new spelling. In other words: Don't wait for the rest of the country to react any time soon.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,033
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,989 Times in 10,888 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
OK, we all agree. Love is everywhere...
Great

On the other hand, it is

les oiseaux = les zoizos
les petits oiseaux = les petits zoizos
les grands oiseaux = les grands zoizos
so just depends on the word before or none : 'w' 'n' or 'z'

Basta cosi.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:15
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,165
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Great

On the other hand, it is

les oiseaux = les zoizos
les petits oiseaux = les petits zoizos
les grands oiseaux = les grands zoizos
so just depends on the word before or none : 'w' 'n' or 'z'
Your phonetic transcriptions are hard to follow... you are only making a point about the liaison, not the rest, when others made a point about the pronunciation of -oi- but at the end, we surely all agree, it's the same French for us all:

lezwazo
leptizwazo
legrãzwazo
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:15
RufusB's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: In my head. And UK. Ex-Basel.
Posts: 2,706
Groaned at 44 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 3,969 Times in 1,621 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

in Old English it used to be a nunion. It obviously changed to an onion.

(Running now)
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:20
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,571
Groaned at 96 Times in 87 Posts
Thanked 8,342 Times in 4,173 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
LOL Mirfield- I so agree - as sais, it was not me who insisted on making a song and dance about it... it was actually funny that an incorrect example was given...

Faltrad, your examples make it clear that un one with 'un' is different and includes the 'n' liaison. œ̃nwazo

Listened to all the examples on your link Mia- and they all say 'un 'n' oiseau, and not un wazo.
Sorry. But it IS you that has made the song and dance by insisting there is no 'wa' sound in un oiseau. Faltrads example might be 'different' but there is Still the 'wa' sound in there!
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:27
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,969 Times in 5,329 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
in Old English it used to be a nunion. It obviously changed to an onion.

(Running now)
No, you're thinking of the word for members of a group of holy sisters dedicated to their master. Like these guys, but dressed like penguins:
Attached Thumbnails
importance-correct-grammar-latest.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:34
Belgianmum's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 9,613
Groaned at 81 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 13,297 Times in 5,917 Posts
Belgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond reputeBelgianmum has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Sorry. But it IS you that has made the song and dance by insisting there is no 'wa' sound in un oiseau. Faltrads example might be 'different' but there is Still the 'wa' sound in there!
Exactly. Odile is the only one making a big deal about it.
Even with the 'n' in there you still have the 'wa' sound in un oiseau.

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't bothered to post the picture now. I just found it rather amusing when I first saw it.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:35
RufusB's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: In my head. And UK. Ex-Basel.
Posts: 2,706
Groaned at 44 Times in 43 Posts
Thanked 3,969 Times in 1,621 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
No, you're thinking of the word for members of a group of holy sisters dedicated to their master. Like these guys, but dressed like penguins:







Ha!


Nope. A nunion.


Interestingly (!) my tablet spellchecker did initially change nunion to minion.


Can't find a link. Must be in one of my very old grammar text books.
I'm pretty sure I didn't make it up.


What do you call a group of nuns?


Hmmm... it appears to be a murmur (which makes sense) but also a prey (! yes, not pray) or a flap, which sounds a bit mean. Maybe it's just a convent of nuns.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 07.02.2016, 12:41
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,571
Groaned at 96 Times in 87 Posts
Thanked 8,342 Times in 4,173 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
Exactly. Odile is the only one making a big deal about it.
Even with the 'n' in there you still have the 'wa' sound in un oiseau.

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't bothered to post the picture now. I just found it rather amusing when I first saw it.
I thought it was funny, too.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 07.02.2016, 13:31
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,969 Times in 5,329 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The importance of correct grammar

Quote:
View Post
I thought it was funny, too.
Mwa aussi!
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"The Local" reports something of international importance! grumpygrapefruit International affairs/politics 2 10.12.2013 08:05
How can I correct the title of my thread? vivi0184 Forum support 3 18.04.2011 10:59
The importance of pets Peg A General off-topic 5 09.02.2010 19:00


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0